Author Topic: Fire Rizzo  (Read 431798 times)

0 Members and 6 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline SkinsNatFan21RIP

  • Posts: 1353
Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4575 on: August 05, 2023, 08:26:42 pm »
The Giants had 8 straight winning seasons which included 3 WS titles.  They had 4 straight losing seasons after that but maintained a .450+ win percentage in 3 of those, and then began contending again.  There is no excuse for the massive tanking in a market the size of DC, Rizzo's poor drafting, and especially the obscene use of deferrals in large contracts. 

So is it Rizzo’s fault we lost Harper for nothing? Is it his fault we didn’t pay Turner, Soto, Harper or Rendon? They also wouldn’t pay Desi and Zimmermann as well. They have a history of this. Hell, Rizzo tried to trade Harper because the Lerners wouldn’t pay him market value and they killed the deal. The kids did not want the team and the Lerners want to sell but they can’t because of the MASN deal. I think some of you clamoring for Rizzo to be fired will be extremely disappointed by what we can get to replace him. Nobody is coming here, developing talent that they can’t re-sign under an ownership group who doesn’t want the team. Ask Bud Black how this ownership group does business…

Offline Natsinpwc

  • Posts: 28003
Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4576 on: August 05, 2023, 08:41:56 pm »
The Giants are kind of a funny comparison. They obviously had a great run when winning those championships. They did squeeze back into the playoffs a couple years ago but had not chance. Same thing may happen this year.  They really don’t have a very good team. The diminishing attendance shows the fans know the product is not that good. 

The Phillies won the division five straight years and then a couple of five hundred seasons before tanking. Lost 99, 91 and 96 games over three consecutive years. But the draft position didn’t help that much and they have built the team by signing free agents.

In the end I want my teams to win. Don’t care how it is done. Spend big on free agents. Fine with me. Build through the draft.  Fine. Do it cheap like Tampa.  That’s great too although no one else seems to replicate it. 

I don’t see much sense on getting rid of Rizzo until the ownership picture clears up.

Offline welch

  • Posts: 18082
  • The Sweetest Right Handed Swing in 1950s Baseball
Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4577 on: August 05, 2023, 08:57:13 pm »
A watchable product

You have it. The Nats won again today, taking a second series from a team competing for the playoffs.

Rizzo judged that the Nats could not compete in 2021 once he learned that Strasburg could not pitch. He traded Max, Trea Turner, Daniel Hudson, and Yan Gomes, all for prospects to begin a rebuild. And he made an offer to Turner. When Turner refused, he did not increase the offer.

- Max went to the market and got a two-year contract for $43 million a year.

- Turner went to the market and signed an eleven year contract at $27 million a year. Turner is signed until he is 40

So Rizzo traded them for prospects rather than sign them to team strangling deals. The Mets could only get something for Max after they agreed to pay most of his salary.

- Hudson and Gomes were the extra guys, the good-but-not-star players who helped to win in 2019

- Rizzo also traded Kyle Schwarber, who signed with the Phillies for $20 million a year for three or four years.

- Soto refused a contract extension, and Rizzo got six or seven prospects. Maybe some won't become major league stars, and others might not make it to the majors, but the organization has more hope than it did early last season.

Met fans are disappointed because Steve Cohen will not buy expensive free agents; the GM says they are building through prospects because that its solid. Mets, he says, do not expect to contend until about 2027. Yankee fans are screaming that they should have sold at the deadline, as the Mets did.

Before the new CBA, teams like Baltimore intentionally lost every year. They got rewarded. That will be tougher for any team now.

Rizzo's trades? Those kept the Nats at .500 and above from 2011 until the deadline in 2021. Most of them turned out well, as the trade for Gio, which sent several prospects out for a starting pitcher. Or signing Adam La Roche and then Howie Kendrick. Or getting Roark and then Tanner Rainey for Roark. Trading Giolito for Eaton was a good trade...look at Eaton's WAR by the time of the trade.

Drafting? The Nats lost two first round picks, and Rizzo took chances. Later, he drafted Cavalli, Rutledge, and Henry. Before that, with first rounders like Fedde, or Seth Romero, or Carter Kieboom, there were flops.

But balance that with overseas signings, like Soto, or add up the players the Nats got for Soto.

Offline UMDNats

  • Posts: 18070
Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4578 on: August 07, 2023, 10:17:04 am »
Rizzo's last 12-15 months has me BACK ON the rizzo bandwagon. The Soto trade was a clear win already and the last couple drafts look a lot better. All we need is a couple guys to live to their potential and Rizzo can build around that like he already has.

Online Slateman

  • Posts: 66783
  • THE SUMMONER OF THE REVERSE JINX
Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4579 on: August 12, 2023, 08:40:01 am »
Grant let it loose on his podcast that after the 2019 WS, the Angels tried to pry Rizzo away from DC

Offline nobleisthyname

  • Posts: 3976
Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4580 on: August 12, 2023, 08:54:19 am »
Grant let it loose on his podcast that after the 2019 WS, the Angels tried to pry Rizzo away from DC

That's an interesting alternative timeline.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 45718
  • Platoon - not just a movie, a baseball obsession
Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4581 on: August 16, 2023, 11:26:11 am »
Svrluga: After big-money teams sputter, Nats’ payroll plan looks better and better

After discussing this season's playoff races, with many low budget teams doing well and high budget teams unlikely to make the playoffs, Svrluga talks a bit about the Nats situation with Lane Thomas and others. Thomas comments that the big budget teams feel more pressure while the Nats have perhaps more "camaraderie." Also how "it's fun disappointing other teams." 

Acknowledging that the Nats are doing better than expected but still not well, and that spending is still usually needed to compete, Svrluga suggests that the Nats may be in position to spend next year, assuming the Rizzo, Martinez, and ownership situations are settled enough to make some commitments.

Quote
Most of the Nats’ young core hasn’t reached arbitration eligibility (shortstop CJ Abrams, pitchers Josiah Gray and MacKenzie Gore) or is signed to a team-friendly long-term extension (catcher Keibert Ruiz), so payroll is automatically suppressed. Translation: Washington will be in position to shop before 2024.

“I got a list,” Martinez said with a smile. “I’ve always got a list.”

This is where the lessons about restraint end. The idea can’t be to spend for spending’s sake. Dollars don’t equate to wins, and this season proves it. But when the Nats were bad but building in 2010, they signed Jayson Werth to a seven-year, $126 million deal. The new core will be looking, eventually, for a similar move.

Offline HalfSmokes

  • Posts: 21925
Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4582 on: August 16, 2023, 07:50:54 pm »
Svrluga: After big-money teams sputter, Nats’ payroll plan looks better and better

After discussing this season's playoff races, with many low budget teams doing well and high budget teams unlikely to make the playoffs, Svrluga talks a bit about the Nats situation with Lane Thomas and others. Thomas comments that the big budget teams feel more pressure while the Nats have perhaps more "camaraderie." Also how "it's fun disappointing other teams." 

Acknowledging that the Nats are doing better than expected but still not well, and that spending is still usually needed to compete, Svrluga suggests that the Nats may be in position to spend next year, assuming the Rizzo, Martinez, and ownership situations are settled enough to make some commitments.


Does Svrluga realize the nats have the second worst record in the NL?

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 45718
  • Platoon - not just a movie, a baseball obsession
Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4583 on: August 16, 2023, 08:06:29 pm »
Does Svrluga realize the nats have the second worst record in the NL?

Quote
After Tuesday’s 5-4 loss to the Red Sox, the Nats remain in last place in the National League East but are on pace to go 72-90 — a modest accomplishment at best, given what the standards once were around here and what those standards must be again.

But through the prism of expectations, of turning highly paid veterans into the foundation for the future at the past three trade deadlines, that doesn’t look that bad. Indeed, it would be a 17-game improvement from the 107-loss abomination of a year ago. The Nats’ 22nd-ranked Opening Day payroll of roughly $101 million was mostly tied up in pitchers Stephen Strasburg and Patrick Corbin — nearly $60 million in salary in a leftover construct from the days when the Nats were going for it annually.

But does going for it mean emptying your pockets — or hedge funds? To be clear, this is not an argument that teams shouldn’t spend on players. They should, and they must. But the playoff races in mid-August are a compelling study — as is the fact that the Nats are within a game of the Mets and just four back of the Padres.

Online Slateman

  • Posts: 66783
  • THE SUMMONER OF THE REVERSE JINX
Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4584 on: August 16, 2023, 08:23:03 pm »
Uh ... again, we traded a bunch of talent. We should at least be expecting a modest improvement.

Kind of smacks of Svrluga writing a puff piece. Do some hard journalism. How about researching how much better we would be if the Lerners werent this freaking cheap? How much better are we with Zack Efflin and Joc Pederson?

While you're at it, go look in to how much money Rizzo is getting beyond the payroll? Is our in ability to leverage analytics and peripherals the result of Rizzo's old school scouting mentality, or because the Lerners are clutching their purse strings right now?

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 45718
  • Platoon - not just a movie, a baseball obsession
Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4585 on: August 16, 2023, 09:50:55 pm »
He's making a pitch for the "restraint" to end. that's not a call to stand pat.

Offline Smithian

  • Posts: 12286
  • Sunshine Squad 2025
Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4586 on: August 17, 2023, 11:51:27 am »
You don’t think Rizzo wouldn’t prefer to be playing with a top 10 payroll versus this bunch?

This team is frustrating and it’ll cool off from this streak, but it’s undoubtedly been better than last season. Rizzo had solid trade deadlines last couple seasons. This year book is out.

When new ownership comes in, it is up to Rizzo to explain how it got so bad so fast after the World Series run. But he has a good case he has started digging the team out of the hole.

Offline SkinsNatFan21RIP

  • Posts: 1353
Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4587 on: August 18, 2023, 11:22:05 am »
Although you can’t really disregard it, I wonder what our record is you remove the awful play in June?

Offline Five Banners

  • Posts: 2406
Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4588 on: August 18, 2023, 11:32:37 am »
Although you can’t really disregard it, I wonder what our record is you remove the awful play in June?

I remember the stretch was 2-13 at one point, so…

Offline SkinsNatFan21RIP

  • Posts: 1353
Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4589 on: August 18, 2023, 11:42:37 am »
You don’t think Rizzo wouldn’t prefer to be playing with a top 10 payroll versus this bunch?

This team is frustrating and it’ll cool off from this streak, but it’s undoubtedly been better than last season. Rizzo had solid trade deadlines last couple seasons. This year book is out.

When new ownership comes in, it is up to Rizzo to explain how it got so bad so fast after the World Series run. But he has a good case he has started digging the team out of the hole.


I think a big part of it was Covid. The Lerners are commercial real estate and they got pummeled so they weren’t trying to spend. That’s not solely the case obviously as the team got older fast but I think losing the season after winning the World Series was pretty crappy. We got jobbed pretty hard but there’s also no one to blame for it.

Offline imref

  • Posts: 47540
  • NG Nattitude?
Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4590 on: August 18, 2023, 11:51:38 am »
This team has been playoff caliber since around July 1

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 45718
  • Platoon - not just a movie, a baseball obsession
Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4591 on: August 18, 2023, 11:58:17 am »
Although you can’t really disregard it, I wonder what our record is you remove the awful play in June?
there are 2 stretches of the year that are killing the record. One was the slow start (1-6). the other was the 3-15 stretch that closed on 6/23. It above .500 removing those two stretches.

Offline welch

  • Posts: 18082
  • The Sweetest Right Handed Swing in 1950s Baseball
Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4592 on: August 19, 2023, 11:35:05 am »

I think a big part of it was Covid. The Lerners are commercial real estate and they got pummeled so they weren’t trying to spend. That’s not solely the case obviously as the team got older fast but I think losing the season after winning the World Series was pretty crappy. We got jobbed pretty hard but there’s also no one to blame for it.

The Lerners' real estate might be reviving. I pass by Chelsea Piers every time I drive our daughter back to Brooklyn. It seems back to normal. Out of curiosity, I looked up CP: they have opened a Chelsea Piers in Brooklyn and another in Connecticut.

Offline rbw5t

  • Posts: 803
Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4593 on: August 21, 2023, 11:41:37 am »
there are 2 stretches of the year that are killing the record. One was the slow start (1-6). the other was the 3-15 stretch that closed on 6/23. It above .500 removing those two stretches.

Not counting all the games we’ve lost, we’re undefeated!  😀

Offline imref

  • Posts: 47540
  • NG Nattitude?
Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4594 on: August 21, 2023, 11:48:10 am »
Not counting all the games we’ve lost, we’re undefeated!  😀
:thumbs:

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 45718
  • Platoon - not just a movie, a baseball obsession
Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4595 on: August 21, 2023, 02:03:07 pm »
Not counting all the games we’ve lost, we’re undefeated!  😀
:lol:

Main point I guess is I am surprised at the sustained competitive play

Offline nfotiu

  • Posts: 5174
Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4596 on: August 21, 2023, 02:14:05 pm »
https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/1693686191508299779

Davey extended and Rizzo close.   I like it.   Now if owner's can either sell or start to commit to spending a bit, it would be nice

Offline imref

  • Posts: 47540
  • NG Nattitude?
Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4597 on: August 21, 2023, 02:19:13 pm »
https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/1693686191508299779

Davey extended and Rizzo close.   I like it.   Now if owner's can either sell or start to commit to spending a bit, it would be nice

This has been the best week in Nationals history since October of 2019.

i would think that Rizzo staying means the team is committed to fielding a winning product in the coming years and he'll have what he needs.

Offline Smithian

  • Posts: 12286
  • Sunshine Squad 2025
Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4598 on: August 21, 2023, 02:29:43 pm »
https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/1693686191508299779

Davey extended and Rizzo close.   I like it.   Now if owner's can either sell or start to commit to spending a bit, it would be nice
I fully support this. I did even in the bad days earlier this season.

If there is ever a new ownership group, which I progressively doubt, they can fire these two if they don't like them.

Offline HalfSmokes

  • Posts: 21925
Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4599 on: August 21, 2023, 02:38:49 pm »
This has been the best week in Nationals history since October of 2019.

i would think that Rizzo staying means the team is committed to fielding a winning product in the coming years and he'll have what he needs.

Clawing their way into respectable non-contention is the best week? 23 back in the division, 8 in the wild card time to extend everyone