Author Topic: Fire Rizzo  (Read 359564 times)

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Offline Slateman

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Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4625: August 22, 2023, 08:39:32 AM »
When you pair the 6th ranked farm system with the 10th worst major league team, does that really mean a bright future? Crappy teams should have good farm systems, but crappy teams tend to remain crappy teams. This team squandered a World Series roster with speed that would make Jeffery Loria blush now we're somehow assuming that they have a bright future? The Lerners got their ring and now they are stuck with a team that they want to sell but can't. To me that means we'll continue to have a product that receives the bare minimum of investment
Until recently, we had a crappy team and a crappy farm system. All under Rizzo

Offline imref

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Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4626: August 22, 2023, 08:47:17 AM »
Until recently, we had a crappy team and a crappy farm system. All under Rizzo

And a 7 year run of dominating the NL East, including 3 division titles, a wild-card appearance, and world series victory, again, all under Rizzo.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4627: August 22, 2023, 09:43:48 AM »
Until recently, we had a crappy team and a crappy farm system. All under Rizzo
And a 7 year run of dominating the NL East, including 3 division titles, a wild-card appearance, and world series victory, again, all under Rizzo.
I think he performed under tight ownership limitations. Ownership handled the biggest Boras contracts, ownership vetoed the Harper deal, ownership had to buy off on increments of spending during the season when we were in contention, too. I think that may have led to some of the stripping of the farm system. The Treinen / Luzardo trade, Rivero for Melancon, the Eaton deal, etc... were trading the only currency we had for necessary pieces. Meyer I think for Revere or Span was an underrated deal.

If he's to blame for anything, I think it is failing to maximize his pitching draft choices. If Fedde comes back from Korea as a capable starter I think we will all pull our hair out.  He seemed to be willing to take an awful lot of chances on health when he drafted, and, surprise, we have a lot of lame pitchers. That said, if Fedde does come back, and Rutledge becomes a contributor, then we look at the pitching picks a bit differently.

There's no question the team was slow to embrace modern data to help improve performance. Again, I'm inclined to say the Lerners did not pay attention to the development process rather than Rizzo failing to appreciate it.

Online nobleisthyname

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Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4628: August 22, 2023, 09:51:00 AM »
When you pair the 6th ranked farm system with the 10th worst major league team, does that really mean a bright future?

You can't deny the trend is promising though considering just last year we were a bottom 5 ranked farm system and the worst major league team period.

Online Natsinpwc

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Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4629: August 22, 2023, 10:01:41 AM »
I think he performed under tight ownership limitations. Ownership handled the biggest Boras contracts, ownership vetoed the Harper deal, ownership had to buy off on increments of spending during the season when we were in contention, too. I think that may have led to some of the stripping of the farm system. The Treinen / Luzardo trade, Rivero for Melancon, the Eaton deal, etc... were trading the only currency we had for necessary pieces. Meyer I think for Revere or Span was an underrated deal.

If he's to blame for anything, I think it is failing to maximize his pitching draft choices. If Fedde comes back from Korea as a capable starter I think we will all pull our hair out.  He seemed to be willing to take an awful lot of chances on health when he drafted, and, surprise, we have a lot of lame pitchers. That said, if Fedde does come back, and Rutledge becomes a contributor, then we look at the pitching picks a bit differently.

There's no question the team was slow to embrace modern data to help improve performance. Again, I'm inclined to say the Lerners did not pay attention to the development process rather than Rizzo failing to appreciate it.

Fedde is 15-5 with a 2.01 ERA.  It's not MLB but still good. 

Offline imref

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Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4630: August 22, 2023, 10:07:16 AM »
Fedde is 15-5 with a 2.01 ERA.  It's not MLB but still good. 
you gotta think he'd at least be as good as Williams this year.

Offline UMDNats

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Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4631: August 22, 2023, 10:07:52 AM »
We're already back in contention which is when Rizzo does his best work.

Online Natsinpwc

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Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4632: August 22, 2023, 10:17:23 AM »
you gotta think he'd at least be as good as Williams this year.
He will go to the Dodgers and be an all star.

Online Senatorswin

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Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4633: August 22, 2023, 10:49:49 AM »
Coles is trash. Dude sucks. Literally everyone who is succeeding right now is doing the opposite of what Coles preaches. He is bargain bin of coaching. Abrams and Thomas both started hitting better after Davey talked with them and moved them up. Adams is a SSS against lefties. And Garrett is hitting worse than he did in Arizona.

We actually do know what the Nats did because Gray talked about it at length. WaPo wrote articles about it. And if this was the Nats actually trying to help Gray, everyone involved should be fired.

Scherzer, in 345 innings, has a 2.79 ERA since being traded. Sounds pretty HoF quality to me.

When a team is hitting below expectations fans want to point the blame on the hitting coach. The Nats are hitting above expectations. As I said before we don't know how much credit goes to the hitting coach but we're not privy to what is said to the hitters by who. To say the players are only listening to the manager and not the hitting coach is crap.

Scherzer is at the end of his career. He's missed time since the trade where before you could always count on him posting. He's still good when he posts but we have two young players out of that trade who will be productive for a long time.

Online Natsinpwc

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Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4634: August 22, 2023, 10:54:02 AM »
When a team is hitting below expectations fans want to point the blame on the hitting coach. The Nats are hitting above expectations. As I said before we don't know how much credit goes to the hitting coach but we're not privy to what is said to the hitters by who. To say the players are only listening to the manager and not the hitting coach is crap.

Scherzer is at the end of his career. He's missed time since the trade where before you could always count on him posting. He's still good when he posts but we have two young players out of that trade who will be productive for a long time.
Well said. 

Offline KnorrForYourMoney

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Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4635: August 22, 2023, 11:35:16 AM »
Quote
This team squandered a World Series roster with speed that would make Jeffery Loria blush now we're somehow assuming that they have a bright future?

That "World Series roster" by and large returned for 2020 and the first half of 2021, and most key players underperformed and/or dealt with injuries.

That's not "squandering," it's just players aging and regressing.  Corbin, Rendon, Strasburg, Kendrick, Zimmerman, Robles, and Eaton were not the same players after 2019.  Scherzer/Soto/Turner is a good core, but the team didn't really have enough time to rebuild anything around them, especially since Max is only getting older.

Offline imref

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Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4636: August 22, 2023, 11:43:03 AM »
That "World Series roster" by and large returned for 2020 and the first half of 2021, and most key players underperformed and/or dealt with injuries.

That's not "squandering," it's just players aging and regressing.  Corbin, Rendon, Strasburg, Kendrick, Zimmerman, Robles, and Eaton were not the same players after 2019.  Scherzer/Soto/Turner is a good core, but the team didn't really have enough time to rebuild anything around them, especially since Max is only getting older.

that roster was pretty old in 2019 IIRC.

Can I remind everyone that we won a WS with Wander Suero?

We've talked about this ad-naseum. Rizzo built a new core based around Kieboom, Robles, Soto, Fedde, and Garcia to take the reigns in 2021-22. It didn't pan out.

Offline Slateman

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Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4637: August 22, 2023, 12:22:42 PM »
When a team is hitting below expectations fans want to point the blame on the hitting coach. The Nats are hitting above expectations. As I said before we don't know how much credit goes to the hitting coach but we're not privy to what is said to the hitters by who. To say the players are only listening to the manager and not the hitting coach is crap.

Scherzer is at the end of his career. He's missed time since the trade where before you could always count on him posting. He's still good when he posts but we have two young players out of that trade who will be productive for a long time.
Are they?

Who is better because of Coles? Abrams has one good month, and beyond that he's been a .600s OPS hitter. Lane Thomas has a lower OPS, wRC+, slugging, and walk rate, while striking out more. Ruiz spent the first half swinging at everything and grounding into weak contact (the hallmark of the Coles Hitting Philosophy). Luis Garcia has collapsed. Joey Meneses is much worse.  Stone Garrett is worse than he was in Arizona. Alex Call cant hit his weight. Literally no one is getting better, except maybe Adams, who we rarely play.

Andn when you expand it out to the time before Coles got here, it gets worse. Coles has been a mediocre hitting coach for a while. Everywhere he's done the job has gotten worse with him there, and gotten better after he left.

Scherzer has 4 more innings than Gray and is top 10 in pitching WAR over that time.

Offline rileyn

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Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4638: August 23, 2023, 08:48:11 AM »
Rizzo to the White Sox?

Offline Slateman

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Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4639: August 23, 2023, 08:52:38 AM »
Rizzo to the White Sox?
Gotta wonder if he doesnt get a deal, how quickly they would scoop him up.

Online Smithian

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Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4640: August 23, 2023, 09:25:44 AM »
If I'm the White Sox, I call Rizzo and make him say no. He even grew up and went to school in Chicago.

I don't think working for that ownership is much better than the Lerner's unsettled situation, but he's been here 15 years. It may be time to get out on something of a rebuild high note.

I wouldn't be surprised if Martinez signing his deal without Rizzo signing his is due to the White Sox calling. I expect the Nationals to lock him in, but something to watch.

Offline Slateman

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Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4641: August 23, 2023, 09:28:12 AM »
If you're  Rizzo, do you really want to rebuild again? Like, he's gonna have to deal Cease right off the bat

Online Natsinpwc

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Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4642: August 23, 2023, 09:31:53 AM »
If I'm the White Sox, I call Rizzo and make him say no. He even grew up and went to school in Chicago.

I don't think working for that ownership is much better than the Lerner's unsettled situation, but he's been here 15 years. It may be time to get out on something of a rebuild high note.

I wouldn't be surprised if Martinez signing his deal without Rizzo signing his is due to the White Sox calling. I expect the Nationals to lock him in, but something to watch.
Have to be crazy to want to work for Reisendorf. Even with the Chicago connection.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4643: August 23, 2023, 10:01:32 AM »
If you're  Rizzo, do you really want to rebuild again? Like, he's gonna have to deal Cease right off the bat
otoh, it's easy to see why Chicago might want him to be the guy doing the dealing.

Offline UMDNats

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Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4644: August 23, 2023, 10:05:47 AM »
The White Sox job is one of the worst in baseball.

Online Smithian

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Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4645: August 23, 2023, 10:56:55 AM »
If you're  Rizzo, do you really want to rebuild again? Like, he's gonna have to deal Cease right off the bat
This rebuild isn't over. This has been a fun few weeks, but there has to be serious additions if this team is serious becoming a postseason contender again.

Offline imref

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Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4646: August 23, 2023, 10:59:48 AM »
This rebuild isn't over. This has been a fun few weeks, but there has to be serious additions if this team is serious becoming a postseason contender again.
front-line starter and a power hitting 1B.

Offline UMDNats

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Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4647: August 23, 2023, 11:08:11 AM »
This rebuild isn't over. This has been a fun few weeks, but there has to be serious additions if this team is serious becoming a postseason contender again.

We're already buyers. The rebuild is over, now it's time to compete.

Offline Mattionals

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Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4648: August 23, 2023, 11:36:12 AM »
We're already buyers. The rebuild is over, now it's time to compete.
Rebuild isn't quite over yet. There are a few core guys up with the big club right now, but we are still all waiting on the rest of the core to come up. Abrams, Ruiz, Gore, and Gray are absolutely a core. We've got some other guys who could fit well around them, like Thomas, Riley Adams, Harvey, Thompson, and Finnegan. Then there are guys you are currently getting production out of who may or may not be a part of the next competitive team. Meneses and Garrett come to mind here. You still need to get Crews, Wood, and House up, and see what Cavalli is like after coming back from TJ. There are certainly other interesting prospect names as well, Lipscomb and Morales specifically, and Hassall, Young, and others to a lesser extent. Next year the bare minimum should be a .500 team with competing for a WC being the true goal.

Offline imref

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Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4649: August 23, 2023, 11:44:13 AM »
Rebuild isn't quite over yet. There are a few core guys up with the big club right now, but we are still all waiting on the rest of the core to come up. Abrams, Ruiz, Gore, and Gray are absolutely a core. We've got some other guys who could fit well around them, like Thomas, Riley Adams, Harvey, Thompson, and Finnegan. Then there are guys you are currently getting production out of who may or may not be a part of the next competitive team. Meneses and Garrett come to mind here. You still need to get Crews, Wood, and House up, and see what Cavalli is like after coming back from TJ. There are certainly other interesting prospect names as well, Lipscomb and Morales specifically, and Hassall, Young, and others to a lesser extent. Next year the bare minimum should be a .500 team with competing for a WC being the true goal.

We're about a 70-75 win team this year that has been a top-10 team for about two months now. Upgrade the offense at 1B and add a front-line starter, plus Crews replacing Call, and this team should at least compete for a WC slot next year.