Author Topic: Fire Rizzo  (Read 463955 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Natsinpwc

  • Posts: 28717
Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4600 on: August 21, 2023, 02:48:07 pm »
Not sure what to think. Pluses and minuses for both of them.  Key seems the same ownership. . 

Online JCA-CrystalCity

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 49095
  • Platoon - not just a movie, a baseball obsession
Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4601 on: August 21, 2023, 03:43:13 pm »
Clawing their way into respectable non-contention is the best week? 23 back in the division, 8 in the wild card time to extend everyone
yep. can you think of a better week?  I mean, the pickings are slim. There might have been one in 6/21, but short of that stretch, I'd say this past week is better than the rest. 

Offline HalfSmokes

  • Posts: 22106
Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4602 on: August 21, 2023, 03:56:38 pm »
yep. can you think of a better week?  I mean, the pickings are slim. There might have been one in 6/21, but short of that stretch, I'd say this past week is better than the rest. 

Probably not which makes extending anyone a bad idea. When being relevant for a week in a season where you will pick as high as league rules allow is the best you can come up with over a four year stretch, everyone one should be polishing the resume

Offline Senatorswin

  • Posts: 2913
Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4603 on: August 21, 2023, 04:42:24 pm »
I'm happy Rizzo is close to an extension. I would prefer more than a two year deal though. He gave Washington it's first World Series championship since 1924. In the what have you done for me lately category, it looks like the Nats are close to having a consistent winner again similar to the 2010 decade with a plethora of talent in the minors.

As for Davey I've been critical of him at times. but he also got us a World Series and it would seem is working a miracle this year based on the starting lineup every night.

Offline Senatorswin

  • Posts: 2913
Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4604 on: August 21, 2023, 04:45:01 pm »
Now if we could only lock up Darnell Coles long term lol.

Offline imref

  • Posts: 50674
  • NG Nattitude?
Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4605 on: August 21, 2023, 04:59:20 pm »
Now if we could only lock up Darnell Coles long term lol.
:poke:

Offline HalfSmokes

  • Posts: 22106
Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4606 on: August 21, 2023, 06:10:19 pm »
I'm happy Rizzo is close to an extension. I would prefer more than a two year deal though. He gave Washington it's first World Series championship since 1924. In the what have you done for me lately category, it looks like the Nats are close to having a consistent winner again similar to the 2010 decade with a plethora of talent in the minors.

As for Davey I've been critical of him at times. but he also got us a World Series and it would seem is working a miracle this year based on the starting lineup every night.

The nats are in the same division as the Braves. In why universe are we even close to them? I guess no one told them they have to bottom out after winning

Offline Senatorswin

  • Posts: 2913
Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4607 on: August 21, 2023, 06:38:42 pm »
The nats are in the same division as the Braves. In why universe are we even close to them? I guess no one told them they have to bottom out after winning

At no time did I compare the Nats to the Braves. It looks like Rizzo has them back on track to be good again. The Nats had years where they drafted poorly but they used their assets to hopefully rebuild a young exiting team.

Offline DPMOmaha

  • Posts: 22885
Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4608 on: August 21, 2023, 06:39:24 pm »
Are the Lerner's recommitted to fielding a winning team? If so, then this is a good move. They've got a core set to be ready in the next couple of years. Wouldn't make sense to me to hit the reset on that with a new GM.

Offline Natsinpwc

  • Posts: 28717
Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4609 on: August 21, 2023, 06:43:53 pm »
Braves look tough the next few years but with three wild cards lots of room to mmm for playoff teams.

Offline DPMOmaha

  • Posts: 22885
Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4610 on: August 21, 2023, 06:50:53 pm »
Sure. It's the Major Leagues. There will be other tough teams to contend with.

Offline bluestreak

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 11488
Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4611 on: August 21, 2023, 06:52:12 pm »
To the folks that don’t like this move, is there a compelling reason *not* to resign Martinez and Rizzo?

Offline imref

  • Posts: 50674
  • NG Nattitude?
Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4612 on: August 21, 2023, 07:23:50 pm »
To the folks that don’t like this move, is there a compelling reason *not* to resign Martinez and Rizzo?

Because Manny Acta and Jim Bowden are available?

Online JCA-CrystalCity

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 49095
  • Platoon - not just a movie, a baseball obsession
Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4613 on: August 21, 2023, 07:35:34 pm »
Make the post-season tournament then play. Braves and Dodgers will be the class of the NL like they have been since 2017 (even 2019). Wild cards give you a shot. That's what they Nats can have soon. It's the Phillies, San Diego, San Fran, AZ, Miami, and probably the Mets when they spend again on a new crew that's the competition.

Offline Natsinpwc

  • Posts: 28717
Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4614 on: August 21, 2023, 07:39:54 pm »
Make the post-season tournament then play. Braves and Dodgers will be the class of the NL like they have been since 2017 (even 2019). Wild cards give you a shot. That's what they Nats can have soon. It's the Phillies, San Diego, San Fran, AZ, Miami, and probably the Mets when they spend again on a new crew that's the competition.
Don’t forget the Central. Cubs, Brewers and Reds all look decent.  And the Cards will probably be back in the mix.  Maybe only the Rockies and Pirates not competitive.  And the Pirates seem to have lots of young talent. 

Offline Slateman

  • Posts: 69006
  • THE SUMMONER OF THE REVERSE JINX
Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4615 on: August 21, 2023, 08:07:57 pm »
You don’t think Rizzo wouldn’t prefer to be playing with a top 10 payroll versus this bunch?

This team is frustrating and it’ll cool off from this streak, but it’s undoubtedly been better than last season. Rizzo had solid trade deadlines last couple seasons. This year book is out.

When new ownership comes in, it is up to Rizzo to explain how it got so bad so fast after the World Series run. But he has a good case he has started digging the team out of the hole.
To the folks that don’t like this move, is there a compelling reason *not* to resign Martinez and Rizzo?

This team was terrible outside of five months from 2018 until June of this season. And, fundamentally, its for two reasons.

The first is the obvious one. The Lerners didn't want to spend after the WS. We know they didn't. Part of that was probably covid, but it it seems a large part was due to the fact that they wanted to sell the team. Between covid and MASN, they didn't get the price they were looking for, and basically paralyzed the team because of it. Which is a part of why they have sucked. Lets face it, no one is winning anything meaningful with Trevor Williams and Dom Smith on your roster.

But the second issue is the much more relevant one. This team didn't develop nearly enough talent to be competitive. We've talked about this at length, but the drafts after Rendon are basically devoid of meaningful players. Erick Fedde and Carter Kieboom round out a plethora of draft picks that amounted to nothing. And, outside of Soto, the Latin player development was pretty fruitless as well. Yes, Soto is a hell of a pull, but the next best is Robles (good for all of one season) and then ... nothing. For ten years, this system didn't  produce enough talent to keep the team competitive once ownership wasn't willing to sink 150+ million. Not only could it not keep it competitive, but the system was amongst the worst in baseball.

Rizzo's soluton was to sell of the team. And he sold some pretty large pieces. Pieces that will likely end up in the HoF. But I don't know if Rizzo has fixed the issues that led to that point. We know this team is well behind the curve in analytics and player development.  There have been several stories about it from reputable writers. And even this season, we see it with the choice of hitting coach and the complete lack development of Josiah Gray's fastball.

And actually, we need to delve in to that because its a micro-chasm of the organization that Rizzo has built. Josiah Gray left the 2022 season with a 4 seamer that opponents hit .300 off of and slugged .732. Baseball was Babe Ruth against Josiah Gray's 4 seamer. And the maddening part is that his slider and curveball are both really good in 2022. Straight up nasty. Going in to the offseason, it was pretty clear that his fastball needed significant improvement. Teams that develop pitchers do this one of three ways. The first is bio-mechanics, usually with the goal of getting more extension on the fastball release. Gray is 6 foot and it seems like his offseason bio-mechanical development focused one some sort of foot placement. The second and third ways you improve a fastball are related: Throw it harder, throw it with more spin. Throw it harder is obvious. Harder the fastball, the less time the pitcher has to react. With spin, you're trying to change the induced vertical break (IVB) of the fastball. IVB simply means the pitch is "breaking" upward from the average level a pitch falls from release to home plate. This gives the pitch the perception of more velo than it actually has. So, just because you throw 92-94 doesn't mean  it seems like it to the batter. Good extension and IVB make seem like the fastball is far harder than it actually is.

Teams good at player development do this, to one extent or the other. They alter the mechanics, the grip, and develop workouts around re-shaping fastballs. And, I'll guarantee that the Dodgers saw all this and were like, "Oh, just fix the fastball? Easy." But this past offseason, what did the Nationals do to help their budding top of the rotation starter (that cost them a HoF player)? Nothing. They left him to his own devices. To his credit, he clearly worked hard in the offseason. He showed up to ST with a brand new pitch, a cutter, and looks in great shape. And since then, he's added another new pitch, the sweeper.

The problem is his fastball still sucks. Despite an all start appearance and cutting his home run rate in half, he has an xERA of 4.72 and a FIP 4.81. His strikeouts have gone down and his walks have remained the same. For a little while, he was able to cover up his poor fastball with a mash of average offerings, but at the expense of his best pitches (slider and curveball). And where good developmental teams would have worked with him on his fastball, the Nationals haven't. And its finally catching up with him in the second half.

The Nationals seem to still be behind the curve when it comes to the non-scouting/old school thinking in baseball. They just got around to adding Hawk-Eye systems in the their minor league parks last year (the tech is over 5 years old at this point). They also added personnel to billets that many other clubs have had for a while (director of technology, bio mechanic specialists, ect.).

All of this happened under Rizzo's watch as GM. So, the bigger question I have is, how much of this is his fault? Did this happen because the Lerners didn't let Rizzo have enough budget and he chose to spend that limited budget on what he knew best? Or did it get this way because Rizzo has no idea how to utilize modern analytics, nor hire people who can teach him how to leverage it. So, I'm pretty skeptical. Rizzo is the master of the trade, but beyond that, I think he leaves a lot to be desired in a baseball GM. I would have felt a lot better about him staying on if he had hired a James Click-type to be his deputy.

Naturally, we're happy with a world series, but that's basically a crap ton of luck. How happy are we going to be in 5-7 years when Crews, Wood, Gore, and Cavalli all get traded because there's nothing else in the system ready to play, and we know the Lerners aren't going to pay them?

Offline Natsinpwc

  • Posts: 28717
Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4616 on: August 21, 2023, 08:23:55 pm »
Current ownership does not want to put the effort into what would be required to search for a new GM.  Who would they have to even discuss analytics and development with candidates.  They would need to bring someone on experienced to do that for them. They’re not spending more money.  So until new ownership this is what you have for better or worse.

Offline bluestreak

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 11488
Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4617 on: August 21, 2023, 08:45:15 pm »
Slate, I don’t disagree with a lot of what you wrote. I just don’t think the Lerners are going to change course on philosophy dramatically before they sell. I’m moderately pleased with the rebuild and I don’t think any GM worth having would come into this situation.

You don’t give a reason to not re-sign Davey. So I assume you agree with that.

Offline Kevrock

  • Posts: 13925
  • That’s gonna be a no from me, dog
Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4618 on: August 21, 2023, 08:54:10 pm »
Our front office is far from perfect, and nothing can excuse falling behind the curve on scouting and drafting as badly as we did. But this is the best move if the plan if the Lerners are planning to potentially sell within the next few years. Let's Rizzo see a rebuild through on a timeline that he set. Potentially bridges to new owners who can evaluate the organization while Rizzo pitches a vision of what he would do going forward with ownership investment.

Offline Senatorswin

  • Posts: 2913
Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4619 on: August 21, 2023, 10:12:25 pm »
Slate, there's a couple of things I disagree with. One, you criticize the selection of the hitting coach. We've gone over this before, but I saw on a broadcast a few nights ago the Nats are 7th in runs scored since June 6th. They are 4th in MLB in hitting with RISP. With what? They have no star hitters. Guys like Abrams, Thomas, Adams, and Garrett have shown marked improvement over their previous abilities. Is it the hitting coach who turned it around. Who knows. But the facts say the Nats are hitting way above what their talent says they should.

We don't know what the Nats did to help Gray over the off-season. To give credit to Gray for any improvements he's shown despite the Nats isn't fair. You often say they gave up a future HOFer to get him but it's a future HOFer at the end of his career who hasn't been the same pitcher he was with the Nats since he left.

Besides Rendon the Nats drafted poorly after the obvious Harper, Strasburg picks but he signed free agents and made trades so that the Nats had the second best record to the Dodgers for most of the 20teens. Now he has them in a position to have a bright future with the 6th ranked minor league system.

Offline imref

  • Posts: 50674
  • NG Nattitude?
Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4620 on: August 21, 2023, 10:37:18 pm »
Are we forgetting the contract offer to Soto and that we were competing for a playoff spot in 2021 before all the injuries?

Offline Natsinpwc

  • Posts: 28717
Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4621 on: August 21, 2023, 10:41:24 pm »
Are we forgetting the contract offer to Soto and that we were competing for a playoff spot in 2021 before all the injuries?
Wonder if that is when they decided to sell the team? 

Offline imref

  • Posts: 50674
  • NG Nattitude?
Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4622 on: August 21, 2023, 10:44:06 pm »
Wonder if that is when they decided to sell the team? 

I suspect it has more to do with Mark’s health issues than anything else

Offline Slateman

  • Posts: 69006
  • THE SUMMONER OF THE REVERSE JINX
Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4623 on: August 22, 2023, 08:11:02 am »
Slate, there's a couple of things I disagree with. One, you criticize the selection of the hitting coach. We've gone over this before, but I saw on a broadcast a few nights ago the Nats are 7th in runs scored since June 6th. They are 4th in MLB in hitting with RISP. With what? They have no star hitters. Guys like Abrams, Thomas, Adams, and Garrett have shown marked improvement over their previous abilities. Is it the hitting coach who turned it around. Who knows. But the facts say the Nats are hitting way above what their talent says they should.

We don't know what the Nats did to help Gray over the off-season. To give credit to Gray for any improvements he's shown despite the Nats isn't fair. You often say they gave up a future HOFer to get him but it's a future HOFer at the end of his career who hasn't been the same pitcher he was with the Nats since he left.

Besides Rendon the Nats drafted poorly after the obvious Harper, Strasburg picks but he signed free agents and made trades so that the Nats had the second best record to the Dodgers for most of the 20teens. Now he has them in a position to have a bright future with the 6th ranked minor league system.
Coles is trash. Dude sucks. Literally everyone who is succeeding right now is doing the opposite of what Coles preaches. He is bargain bin of coaching. Abrams and Thomas both started hitting better after Davey talked with them and moved them up. Adams is a SSS against lefties. And Garrett is hitting worse than he did in Arizona.

We actually do know what the Nats did because Gray talked about it at length. WaPo wrote articles about it. And if this was the Nats actually trying to help Gray, everyone involved should be fired.

Scherzer, in 345 innings, has a 2.79 ERA since being traded. Sounds pretty HoF quality to me.

Offline HalfSmokes

  • Posts: 22106
Re: Fire Rizzo
« Reply #4624 on: August 22, 2023, 08:26:00 am »
Slate, there's a couple of things I disagree with. One, you criticize the selection of the hitting coach. We've gone over this before, but I saw on a broadcast a few nights ago the Nats are 7th in runs scored since June 6th. They are 4th in MLB in hitting with RISP. With what? They have no star hitters. Guys like Abrams, Thomas, Adams, and Garrett have shown marked improvement over their previous abilities. Is it the hitting coach who turned it around. Who knows. But the facts say the Nats are hitting way above what their talent says they should.

We don't know what the Nats did to help Gray over the off-season. To give credit to Gray for any improvements he's shown despite the Nats isn't fair. You often say they gave up a future HOFer to get him but it's a future HOFer at the end of his career who hasn't been the same pitcher he was with the Nats since he left.

Besides Rendon the Nats drafted poorly after the obvious Harper, Strasburg picks but he signed free agents and made trades so that the Nats had the second best record to the Dodgers for most of the 20teens. Now he has them in a position to have a bright future with the 6th ranked minor league system.

When you pair the 6th ranked farm system with the 10th worst major league team, does that really mean a bright future? Crappy teams should have good farm systems, but crappy teams tend to remain crappy teams. This team squandered a World Series roster with speed that would make Jeffery Loria blush now we're somehow assuming that they have a bright future? The Lerners got their ring and now they are stuck with a team that they want to sell but can't. To me that means we'll continue to have a product that receives the bare minimum of investment