10/11 offseason

[Potomac Cannons]

2B is considered more of an offensive position these days.  I disagree as outside of the top 2-3 guys there's very little difference.  Espinosa's OPS would have been 10th for SS and 9th for 2B last season if he had enough ABs to qualify.

[DPMOmaha]

I don't really care where one profiles either.  If someone's going to trade for one of them, I'd assume they've done their home work and know that Espinoza could slide on over to SS rather easily. 

[PANatsFan]

If Justin Maxwell could hit, he would be an all-star. If Cristian Guzman had power, he would be a great SS. If Shawn Hill could stay healthy, he would be a pitcher. If Nyjer Morgan had a straight head, he would be a fine player. It's easy to say that he would be one of the best SS if he could make simple plays, but the fact is that he can't and has not shown the ability to do it in his 7 years of professional ball. He is what he is: Good range, strong arm, horrific hands, and bad decision maker.

[hammondsnats]

If Justin Maxwell could hit, he would be an all-star. If Cristian Guzman had power, he would be a great SS. If Shawn Hill could stay healthy, he would be a pitcher. If Nyjer Morgan had a straight head, he would be a fine player. It's easy to say that he would be one of the best SS if he could make simple plays, but the fact is that he can't and has not shown the ability to do it in his 7 years of professional ball. He is what he is: Good range, strong arm, horrific hands, and bad decision maker.

yeah but the difference is desmond/espinosa are rookies.  the others aren't.

[NatsDad14]

yeah but the difference is desmond/espinosa are rookies.  the others aren't.

This was Espinosa's 3rd season. Desmond had 7 seasons. I could see Espinosa improving, but Desmond has had a shot to improve his defense and he still hasn't done it yet. I hope he proves me wrong.

[hammondsnats]

This was Espinosa's 3rd season. Desmond had 7 seasons. I could see Espinosa improving, but Desmond has had a shot to improve his defense and he still hasn't done it yet. I hope he proves me wrong.

@ the major league level i'm talking about.  and desmond went right from high school to pro ball dude.  espinosa got to play at the shortstop factory. 

again, we'll see this year.  if they can figure it out at their said positions - or flip flop - we are going to have a very exciting, young middle infield for years to come.

[cmdterps44]

Nothing we don't already know..

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/11/nationals-aiming-to-make-a-splash.html

Nationals Aiming To Make A "Splash"
By Ben Nicholson-Smith [November 4, 2010 at 12:14pm CST]

The Nationals are going to pursue top players aggressively this offseason and they may be a sleeper team in the Cliff Lee sweepstakes, according to ESPN.com’s Jerry Crasnick. They are looking for an elite starter and Lee will be available to them within a few days.

"They're going to step up and try to get a top free agent,'' a baseball insider told Crasnick. "They'd like to make a splash.''

If Lee signs with the Yankees, the Rangers or someone else, the Rangers will consider trading for James Shields, Matt Garza or another potentially available starter. The Nationals have no interest in including Ian Desmond and Danny Espinosa in potential trades, according to Crasnick.

The Nationals appear to be interested in Carl Crawford and have expressed interest in adding a top starter since the summer.

[JCA-CrystalCity]

I think we're all in agreement on not wanting to get rid of Desmond, and I'm afraid some people think that... we (I) just want him moved to 2B, to put the better of the two defenders at SS. Plus, Espinosa's hitting profile is more valuable at SS than it ever would be a 2B.

I'm not so sure about that.  I want to pick one, trade the other, and come up with a better bat / adequate glove at second.  If they both look like MLB infielders, deal one rather than play a subpar bat at second.

[Lintyfresh85]

I've gone on record saying we should get Shields.

I'd love Lee AND Shields, though, as well!

[JCA-CrystalCity]

I don't understand why some say that Espinosa should be moved to shortstop because his hitter profile is more valuable there than at second. Assuming that we keep both him and Desmond, it doesn't matter which position they play from an offensive perspective because they'd both be in the lineup anyway.

that's the same with my line of thinking.  who cares what league average is, if they both get the job done.  that's what i'm hoping, i don't care where they play.

and if espinosa's value is high for a 2b then it evens out with desmond @ ss (if that makes any sense).

Your both wrong. It does make a difference.  You cannot afford two SS quality bats at 2d. Go look yourself at the runs created stats on either fangraphs or baseball reference or baseball prospectus (or OPS+ or OPS) and you'll see that the median SS is signifcantly lower than the median 2d baseman.  The glove at 2d does not make up for the run difference.

[JCA-CrystalCity]

Basically, for SS this year, there were Drew, Ramirez, and Tulo for big offensive producers.  They have wOBAs .350 or above, the rest have wOBAs below .330.  For 2d, there were 6 over .350 and another 3 over .330.  It is much easier and more common to get a good bat for 2d.

edit - there were 6 qualified 2d basemen with wOBAs < .322 (legaue average).  There were 15 at SS.

[tomterp]

Your both wrong. It does make a difference.  You cannot afford two SS quality bats at 2d. Go look yourself at the runs created stats on either fangraphs or baseball reference or baseball prospectus (or OPS+ or OPS) and you'll see that the median SS is signifcantly lower than the median 2d baseman.  The glove at 2d does not make up for the run difference.

Either you misunderstood Vega, or I would say YOU are wrong.  What he's saying, is that if you are going to keep both Desmond AND Espinosa in the lineup, then any analysis comparing either to their respective peers is useless, since it doesn't matter what position in the field they play when batting.  Both are in the lineup anyway.

[Potomac Cannons]

Your both wrong. It does make a difference.  You cannot afford two SS quality bats at 2d. Go look yourself at the runs created stats on either fangraphs or baseball reference or baseball prospectus (or OPS+ or OPS) and you'll see that the median SS is signifcantly lower than the median 2d baseman.  The glove at 2d does not make up for the run difference.

There's a slight difference in qualified 2B vs SS.  Just look at last year's leaders lists.  Each position had one player over .900 OPS.  SS had two more at .800+ while 2B had 5.  SS had 9 more at .700+ while 2B had 5.  That's not a huge difference. 

Let's say both Desmond and Espinosa end up in the .750 OPS range.  That's top 10 at both SS and 2B.  Neither would be a star but both would be good players.  I prefer whichever is better at SS with the possibility of Lombardozzi at 2B if his progression continues since he projects as a true leadoff hitter and both Desmond and Espinosa project as batting in the 2/7/8 slots.

Just for a little comparison, Espinosa put up a better OPS than Orlando Hudson that so many clamor for here and Desmond finished 12th at SS while being .057 higher than Elvis Andrus in OPS.

[hammondsnats]

Your both wrong. It does make a difference.  You cannot afford two SS quality bats at 2d. Go look yourself at the runs created stats on either fangraphs or baseball reference or baseball prospectus (or OPS+ or OPS) and you'll see that the median SS is signifcantly lower than the median 2d baseman.  The glove at 2d does not make up for the run difference.

that's your opinion.  to say it can't be done is not impossible.  who knows maybe desmond develops into a 15-20 homer guy.  maybe espinosa can turn into 30 homer guy?

zimmerman wasn't a home run hitter in college, look at him now. 

unless you have the Back To The Future DeLorean, nobody knows what those two are capable of (whether it be good or bad).

[Lintyfresh85]

Would you rather have the Hoverboard or the DeLorean?

[hammondsnats]

Would you rather have the Hoverboard or the DeLorean?

good question.  you imagine how fast nyjer morgan would be on a hoverboard?  i wonder if he would still slide hands first?

those movies were so damn good.  nothing touches the first one, toss up between the next two which was the second best. 

[Potomac Cannons]

I've gone on record saying we should get Shields.

I'd love Lee AND Shields, though, as well!

Don't want to leave this one unnoticed.  I'd be very happy with Shields in a trade.  Anyone in the Lee/Greinke/Shields/Garza/Pavano/De La Rosa grouping, in that order, would be a positive.

[Potomac Cannons]

Would you rather have the Hoverboard or the DeLorean?

I'd be satisfied with two guys who have good to great range on defense and fit in the top 10 in OPS at SS and 2B.  If an upgrade to an elite bat at either spot becomes available then do it.

[HalfSmokes]

Don't want to leave this one unnoticed.  I'd be very happy with Shields in a trade.  Anyone in the Lee/Greinke/Shields/Garza/Pavano/De La Rosa grouping, in that order, would be a positive.

 I would cut the list after Garza, but any would be nice especially after having lannan and perez as opening day starters

[Potomac Cannons]

Basically, for SS this year, there were Drew, Ramirez, and Tulo for big offensive producers.  They have wOBAs .350 or above, the rest have wOBAs below .330.  For 2d, there were 6 over .350 and another 3 over .330.  It is much easier and more common to get a good bat for 2d.

edit - there were 6 qualified 2d basemen with wOBAs < .322 (legaue average).  There were 15 at SS.

Look at who put up those wOBA numbers at 2B.  Dan Uggla and the abortion he calls defense.  Kelly Johnson put up his 2nd positive UZR season this year.  Martin Prado is below average at best defensively.  Omar Infante is average at best defensively.  Jeff Keppinger is approaching Uggla level defense.

I'll give up a bit of the offense for the significant defensive boost.

[PANatsFan]

Nothing we don't already know..

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/11/nationals-aiming-to-make-a-splash.html

While you are right in principle, people ignore this data and just rant and rave anyway.

[The Chief]

Nothing we don't already know..

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/11/nationals-aiming-to-make-a-splash.html

Blah blah, same crap we hear every year.  Anybody wants to challenge me on a bet, I'll bet we don't sign either of those guys (Lee or Crawford).

[hammondsnats]

While you are right in principle, people ignore this data and just rant and rave anyway.

me confused? 

[Lintyfresh85]

Blah blah, same crap we hear every year.  Anybody wants to challenge me on a bet, I'll bet we don't sign either of those guys (Lee or Crawford).

Pretty much a sucker bet.

Lee to the Yankees.
Crawford to the Yankees/Angels

Nats were 'close' on both.

[HalfSmokes]

Blah blah, same crap we hear every year.  Anybody wants to challenge me on a bet, I'll bet we don't sign either of those guys (Lee or Crawford).

will you take bets on lerner explaining that we were actually the high bidder?