Author Topic: 10/11 offseason  (Read 252163 times)

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Offline The Hammer

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Re: 10/11 offseason (Better than Bumplestiltskin Left-Eye Lopez's)
« Reply #125 on: October 26, 2010, 07:09:12 pm »
Not enough evidence for me to say otherwise, yet.  Evaluating Rays pitchers on performance and not peripherals is very tricky, because the Rays defense depresses pretty much all of their pitchers' ERAs.  Next year should make things a little clearer with some of their key players gone.
I'd take Garza over Shields. I wouldn't trust Shields on the Nationals.

Offline The Hammer

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Re: 10/11 offseason (Better than Bumplestiltskin Left-Eye Lopez's)
« Reply #126 on: October 26, 2010, 07:13:47 pm »
They had mostly really good team pitching numbers but none of their guys was an ace this year.
Lincecum finished 9th in FIP, 4th in xFIP, 11th in K/BB and 5th in WAR. That is an ace. Cain was 14th in ERA and 6th in WHIP, and 6th in BA allowed (Johnathan Sanchez was the best in the league in this category), 13th in K/BB. Both of them pitched like #1 starters this season.

Offline welch

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Re: 10/11 offseason (Better than Bumplestiltskin Left-Eye Lopez's)
« Reply #127 on: October 26, 2010, 09:26:33 pm »
Pavano. 

09--13th in K/BB, 5th in BB/9, only top 40 in WHIP, FIP, xFIP, 30th in WAR among all SPs.
10--28th WHIP, FIP 50th, xFIP 40th, K/BB 19th, 3rd in BB/9, and 46th in WAR.

If he walks no one and even his worst numbers are top 50 among SPs, with quite a few in the 30-40 range, doesn't that necessarily make him a #2 SP relative to the rest of the talent in the league?  He had two good years in 03-04, struggled with injuries for a few years, and has come back with two more good years.  He's not an ace, or even a #1, but a guy that is a top 50 SP at worst must be considered a #2 in a league with a minimum of 180 SP per season.

It's a fantasy baseball mentality that downgrades guys like this to #3 or worse SP.  Reality means they must be rated relative to their contemporaries.  I'd love to end up with Lee in FA and a trade for Greinke.  I'd still be ecstatic getting just one of them.  I'd be happy grabbing one of the available guys like the ones listed above via FA or trade as they are all front of the rotation SP.

Add one of those guys and healthy JZ and Stras pitching pushes whomever to the #3 spot by the end of 2012 anyways.

Pavano? Really??? The same Carl Pavano I didn't see pitch for the Yankees for three years? (Only older). The same Pavano who is nicknamed "American Idle", and not because the Daily News can't spell?

Some players are "has beens". The Nats hired one called Orlando "El Duque" Hernandez last summer. Other players are "never-was-es". That's Pavano.

Offline cmdterps44

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Re: 10/11 offseason (Better than Bumplestiltskin Left-Eye Lopez's)
« Reply #128 on: October 26, 2010, 09:31:05 pm »
Pavano? Really??? The same Carl Pavano I didn't see pitch for the Yankees for three years? (Only older). The same Pavano who is nicknamed "American Idle", and not because the Daily News can't spell?

Some players are "has beens". The Nats hired one called Orlando "El Duque" Hernandez last summer. Other players are "never-was-es". That's Pavano.

Comparing Orlando to Pavano is really lame though. We signed Orlando as a "hey we have your half brother!" signing. It has to be. I doubt anyone expect the 40 year old to do anything. Pavano is actually decent now. I also wouldn't call him a never was since he's had 4 good seasons in his career. He may have hit a stopgap with the Yankees but that doesn't mean he is a never was. He's still a good pitcher. I just don't want to consider him our number 1 guy if we signed him. Grab him and another if we must!!

Offline Potomac Cannons

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Re: 10/11 offseason (Better than Bumplestiltskin Left-Eye Lopez's)
« Reply #129 on: October 26, 2010, 09:47:45 pm »
Pavano? Really??? The same Carl Pavano I didn't see pitch for the Yankees for three years? (Only older). The same Pavano who is nicknamed "American Idle", and not because the Daily News can't spell?

Some players are "has beens". The Nats hired one called Orlando "El Duque" Hernandez last summer. Other players are "never-was-es". That's Pavano.

The Orlando comparison is ridiculous.  Pavano had two good seasons in Florida, was injured for the better part of 4 seasons, and has had two good seasons immediately following that.  I already showed how his stats put him solidly in the top 40 SPs two consecutive years.  That's a #2 SP by any legitimate definition.  He should get a bump as well by pitching in the NL.

Discounting Pavano means ignoring every meaningful statistical identifier available.  He's a #2 SP.  Since Rizzo said front of the rotation, not necessarily a #1 SP, he fits the bill.  Anyone using his Yankees time ignores the injuries that limited him to 26 starts in 4 seasons.  He doesn't walk anyone, doesn't give up HRs and is a lock for 3-4 WAR if healthy.

Anyone who actually thinks this would be a bad move really needs to rethink how they look at baseball.  Other than strikeouts he does everything you want a pitcher to do and does it well. 

I would prefer Lee, Greinke, Shields or Garza obviously, but Pavano is a proven good pitcher.

Offline Lintyfresh85

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Re: 10/11 offseason (Better than Bumplestiltskin Left-Eye Lopez's)
« Reply #130 on: October 26, 2010, 09:54:28 pm »
An opinion does not become fact by stating it in a declarative tone.

Offline Potomac Cannons

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Re: 10/11 offseason (Better than Bumplestiltskin Left-Eye Lopez's)
« Reply #131 on: October 26, 2010, 09:54:48 pm »
Comparing Orlando to Pavano is really lame though. We signed Orlando as a "hey we have your half brother!" signing. It has to be. I doubt anyone expect the 40 year old to do anything. Pavano is actually decent now. I also wouldn't call him a never was since he's had 4 good seasons in his career. He may have hit a stopgap with the Yankees but that doesn't mean he is a never was. He's still a good pitcher. I just don't want to consider him our number 1 guy if we signed him. Grab him and another if we must!!

I've got no problem with him as the #1 initially.  JZ getting to full health will leapfrog him by the end of 2011.  Stras will do the same in 2012 giving us our 1 & 2 starters in house.

I think we'll nab someone younger and overpay that way though.

Offline Potomac Cannons

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Re: 10/11 offseason (Better than Bumplestiltskin Left-Eye Lopez's)
« Reply #132 on: October 26, 2010, 09:58:22 pm »
An opinion does not become fact by stating it in a declarative tone.

Every stat other than K/9 being top 40 for two consecutive years, with a minimum of 180 starting pitchers, is fact.  That's a #2 SP relative to his contemporaries for two years since he got healthy. 

Not stating any supporting facts to the contrary doesn't invalidate the presented facts just because you don't like them and don't want to agree with them.

Offline NatsDad14

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Re: 10/11 offseason (Better than Bumplestiltskin Left-Eye Lopez's)
« Reply #133 on: October 26, 2010, 10:03:41 pm »
Every stat other than K/9 being top 40 for two consecutive years, with a minimum of 180 starting pitchers, is fact.  That's a #2 SP relative to his contemporaries for two years since he got healthy. 

Not stating any supporting facts to the contrary doesn't invalidate the presented facts just because you don't like them and don't want to agree with them.
The irony of this is killing me. Potomac Cannons states as a fact that Jordan Zimmermann is a #1 starter despite those stats not agreeing with him. He uses FIP stats when it suits (Zimmermann, Pavano), but when it doesn't suit him he completely ignores it (Jason Marquis).

Offline PANatsFan

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Re: 10/11 offseason (Better than Bumplestiltskin Left-Eye Lopez's)
« Reply #134 on: October 26, 2010, 10:10:24 pm »
To be fair, Welch's declaration that Pavano is a never-was is just as false.

Offline Lintyfresh85

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Re: 10/11 offseason (Better than Bumplestiltskin Left-Eye Lopez's)
« Reply #135 on: October 26, 2010, 10:13:43 pm »
To be fair, Welch's declaration that Pavano is a never-was is just as false.

An opinion does not become fact by stating it in a declarative tone.

Hmm, I believe someone once said that, in this thread... a long, long time ago.

Offline PANatsFan

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Re: 10/11 offseason (Better than Bumplestiltskin Left-Eye Lopez's)
« Reply #136 on: October 26, 2010, 10:14:18 pm »
Hmm, I believe someone once said that, in this thread... a long, long time ago.

Other people attributed it to Cannons' post, sorry.

Offline Potomac Cannons

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Re: 10/11 offseason (Better than Bumplestiltskin Left-Eye Lopez's)
« Reply #137 on: October 26, 2010, 10:22:55 pm »
Hiroki Kuroda.  I hadn't even paid attention to this name but he's got 10 WAR in three seasons.  No walks, no HRs, right around league average strikeouts, 82 starts in 3 seasons, ERA/FIP/xFIP all under 4 all three years.  He's 35 but the numbers show no sign of decline.

Offline cmdterps44

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Re: 10/11 offseason (Better than Bumplestiltskin Left-Eye Lopez's)
« Reply #138 on: October 26, 2010, 10:30:32 pm »
Other people attributed it to Cannons' post, sorry.

Yeah thats what I thought was going on here.

Offline Vega

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Re: 10/11 offseason (Better than Bumplestiltskin Left-Eye Lopez's)
« Reply #139 on: October 27, 2010, 01:36:43 am »
The thing with Pavano is that even though he is old-ish, he doesn't have nearly the wear that most guys his age do because he spent so much time on the DL.

Offline welch

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Re: 10/11 offseason (Better than Bumplestiltskin Left-Eye Lopez's)
« Reply #140 on: October 27, 2010, 11:42:07 am »
- ah..."proven" again. Maybe Pavano cannot pitch under real pressure?

- "Thanks for the memories, Carl. We remember when you crashed your corvette in Fla, and didn't tell Yankee mgt your rib was broken. We remember 1 of the 4 good starts you made for the Yanks in 4 yrs for all that dough." How old? How many good years did he have?

- Love the manipulation of stats. I want the Nats to give a serious chance to that pitcher in Harrisburg who finished with a 1.03 WHIP and 1.86 ERA (which ought to correlate with WHIP anyway). A big-game pitcher, unlike Pavano; compare him to Milone has only done well in AA.

Offline Potomac Cannons

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Re: 10/11 offseason (Better than Bumplestiltskin Left-Eye Lopez's)
« Reply #141 on: October 27, 2010, 03:18:33 pm »
- ah..."proven" again. Maybe Pavano cannot pitch under real pressure?

- "Thanks for the memories, Carl. We remember when you crashed your corvette in Fla, and didn't tell Yankee mgt your rib was broken. We remember 1 of the 4 good starts you made for the Yanks in 4 yrs for all that dough." How old? How many good years did he have?

- Love the manipulation of stats. I want the Nats to give a serious chance to that pitcher in Harrisburg who finished with a 1.03 WHIP and 1.86 ERA (which ought to correlate with WHIP anyway). A big-game pitcher, unlike Pavano; compare him to Milone has only done well in AA.

4 good years around the injuries.  I'm starting to think you're one of those baseball "purists" who can't stand the idea of a legitimate, factual approach to player analysis.  You haven't made a single substantive comment about Pavano.  Just lazy conjecture that doesn't hold up to even the slightest scrutiny.

Online JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: 10/11 offseason (Better than Bumplestiltskin Left-Eye Lopez's)
« Reply #142 on: October 27, 2010, 03:55:52 pm »
4 good years around the injuries.  I'm starting to think you're one of those baseball "purists" who can't stand the idea of a legitimate, factual approach to player analysis.  You haven't made a single substantive comment about Pavano.  Just lazy conjecture that doesn't hold up to even the slightest scrutiny.
PotCan, Welch lives in NY, so his view of Pavano will be influenced by his complete lack of success for the NYY.  Just one of the poorest returns on a contract ever (not saying a bad signing, just onethat did not work out at all.

Welch - I don't know how you can say Pavano can't pitch under pressure.  did you see 2003?  He was very effective for ~300 innings since he's been in Minnesota when he was functioning as the first or second starter.  I can see questioning whether his body is sound, but not his head.

Offline welch

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Re: 10/11 offseason (Better than Bumplestiltskin Left-Eye Lopez's)
« Reply #143 on: October 27, 2010, 09:13:49 pm »
To be fair, Welch's declaration that Pavano is a never-was is just as false.

Actually, Welch was going for hyperbole...(a joke, in fact), but not far from the truth.

Offline welch

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Re: 10/11 offseason (Better than Bumplestiltskin Left-Eye Lopez's)
« Reply #144 on: October 27, 2010, 09:21:17 pm »
PotCan, Welch lives in NY, so his view of Pavano will be influenced by his complete lack of success for the NYY.  Just one of the poorest returns on a contract ever (not saying a bad signing, just onethat did not work out at all.

Welch - I don't know how you can say Pavano can't pitch under pressure.  did you see 2003?  He was very effective for ~300 innings since he's been in Minnesota when he was functioning as the first or second starter.  I can see questioning whether his body is sound, but not his head.

...and my view of Pavano is entirely based on his three excruciatingly lost years with the Yankees. The general opinion in this town is that Pavano could not take the big stage and bright lights.

Then I checked Baseball Reference, and was interested to see that Pavano never was that good. He had a good season in 2004, but before and after he was a 50/50 won-loss and high ERA pitcher.

Offline EdStroud

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Re: 10/11 offseason (Better than Bumplestiltskin Left-Eye Lopez's)
« Reply #145 on: October 27, 2010, 09:23:14 pm »
...and my view of Pavano is entirely based on his three excruciatingly lost years with the Yankees. The general opinion in this town is that Pavano could not take the big stage and bright lights.

Then I checked Baseball Reference, and was interested to see that Pavano never was that good. He had a good season in 2004, but before and after he was a 50/50 won-loss and high ERA pitcher.
Ed Whitson

Offline PANatsFan

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Re: 10/11 offseason (Better than Bumplestiltskin Left-Eye Lopez's)
« Reply #146 on: October 27, 2010, 11:46:52 pm »
Actually, Welch was going for hyperbole...(a joke, in fact), but not far from the truth.


No one said he is a classy guy. That whole car crash thing was pretty damn sleazy. But he's a good pitcher.

Offline Potomac Cannons

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Re: 10/11 offseason (Better than Bumplestiltskin Left-Eye Lopez's)
« Reply #147 on: October 28, 2010, 12:25:51 am »
...and my view of Pavano is entirely based on his three excruciatingly lost years with the Yankees. The general opinion in this town is that Pavano could not take the big stage and bright lights.

Then I checked Baseball Reference, and was interested to see that Pavano never was that good. He had a good season in 2004, but before and after he was a 50/50 won-loss and high ERA pitcher.

Injuries = can't take the bright lights? 

The ERA argument.  For the 10,000th time, ERA is an inferior stat to FIP and xFIP.  They judge generally the same things but ERA leaves the effect of defense in without taking it into account thus inflating/deflating numbers solely due to quality of plays made by defenders behind the pitcher.  FIP/xFIP removes defense from the equation and simply measures the things that the pitcher actually controls.  They are much more legitimate stats.

W/L.  Good lord.  30 years ago W/L stats for a SP were relevant since the good ones still finished quite a few games.  In the age of specialization, where absolutely no one even finishes a majority of their games, W/L is determined much more by offensive production and bullpen performance.

The stats that actually measure PITCHER PERFORMANCE all favor Pavano putting up 4 good years while healthy including the last two as a front of the rotation starter for a playoff team.

The stats that measure TEAM RESULTS, without adequately calculating the team performance into them, are not as favorable but are tertiary stats.

Just because you don't like the return on investment that the Yankholes got because of Pavano's injury problems that doesn't have the slightest bearing on his actual performance the last 4 years he's been healthy.

Offline Lintyfresh85

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Re: 10/11 offseason (Better than Bumplestiltskin Left-Eye Lopez's)
« Reply #148 on: October 28, 2010, 12:30:38 am »
And what years did those four years take place over?

Offline Potomac Cannons

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Re: 10/11 offseason (Better than Bumplestiltskin Left-Eye Lopez's)
« Reply #149 on: October 28, 2010, 01:16:48 am »
And what years did those four years take place over?

Have you not read anything here?  Every stat that actually measures peformance puts Pavano at least top 50, with most in the 30s, amongst all MLB SP the last two years.  With a minimum of 180 SP each year, to be 50th would put someone in the top 27%.  30th is top 17%.  Of qualifying pitchers he fits in the top third in categories like FIP, BB/9 and WHIP.  That makes him a front of the rotation starter, a #2, whether people like it or not.

03, 04, 09, & 10 were all good years in the top third and higher in terms of pitcher performance for Pavano.  He has one pitching drawback and that's the lack of strikeouts.  He also has the health question but the putting up two years of 200 IP in a row, without any hint of lingering affects from previous issues, lessens that concern.