Author Topic: PB69 presents "Fire Dave Martinez" (2018) (Read 57018 times)

tzinc · « **Reply #1550 on:** July 19, 2018, 04:03:00 pm »

this is not a learn on the job job

especially with a contending team like the Nats have had

DPMOmaha · « **Reply #1551 on:** July 19, 2018, 04:06:02 pm »

Quote from: tzinc on July 19, 2018, 04:03:00 pm

this is not a learn on the job job

especially with a contending team like the Nats have had

Actually, it is. Because that's what we've got.

Ray D · « **Reply #1552 on:** July 19, 2018, 04:56:01 pm »

Quote from: tzinc on July 19, 2018, 04:03:00 pm

this is not a learn on the job job

If he's learned enough on the job to turn this around second half, then I'll say it's been a learn on the job job.

PowerBoater69 · « **Reply #1553 on:** July 19, 2018, 05:08:32 pm »

Martinez didn't learn that warming up pitchers wears them out as much as having them actually appear in the game, that they prefer to come in at the beginning of the inning, or that they will say they are ready even when their arm is tired, he already knew all of that, we all know those things. His problem was not finding the right balance of accounting for those factors while still playing to win the games, so far not so good. This team needs to start winning a whole lot more games real fast and keeping the players happy better be Martinez's least concern.

skippy1999 · « **Reply #1554 on:** July 19, 2018, 05:12:56 pm »

Quote from: bluestreak on July 19, 2018, 01:47:29 pm

As I’ve been saying all year, Martinez has been mismanaging the pitching staff. Seems like people on the team agree with me. That being said, it sounds like he’s learning. Good reporting by Chelsea Janes.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/nationals/nationals-players-express-concerns-about-dave-martinezs-handling-of-the-pitching-staff/2018/07/19/f569d580-8b6b-11e8-8aea-86e88ae760d8_story.html

Quote from: Greg_SRT on July 19, 2018, 03:20:29 pm

Just read it. Sounds like everyone likes Dave. That’s good, looking for a big second half from our Nats.

Can someone summarize? I can't access Post articles and Greg doesn't make it sound nearly as dire as Bluestreak does.

bluestreak · « **Reply #1555 on:** July 19, 2018, 05:18:24 pm »

TLDR, lots of stuff Davey is still getting the hang of.
There were some communication issues: Typically pitchers always say they are ready to go to the manager, they are usually honest with the pitching coaches who then communicate that to manager. That communication didn't happen earlier. It is happening more now.

Davey didn't realize or didn't care that getting up to go in is just as much work as going in. He was warming up pitchers, and then not using them. Effectively burning two pitchers. This contributed to a lot of the bullpen DL stints

Basically he's learning a lot about bullpen management on the fly. Most of the players are supportive and all admit that he is getting better.

They all like Dave. It's overall a positive piece, but it highlights the early mismanagement (some of which still continues)

PowerBoater69 · « **Reply #1556 on:** July 19, 2018, 05:20:18 pm »

Quote from: skippy1999 on July 19, 2018, 05:12:56 pm

Can someone summarize? I can't access Post articles and Greg doesn't make it sound nearly as dire as Bluestreak does.

Quote

The biggest concern is workload — a problem that relievers believe, and have said publicly, sent Brandon Kintzler and Ryan Madson to the disabled list and caused Sammy Solis’s performance to suffer enough that he ended up at Class AAA Syracuse. At one point in May, the Nationals had five relievers — Kintzler, Madson, Solis, Sean Doolittle and Matt Grace — on pace for career highs in appearances....Nationals relievers don’t have a problem with the heavy usage itself as much as with the lack of communication that led to it....Martinez not allowing pitchers to start those next innings is interpreted in the bullpen as a sign that he does not trust them...Everyone seems to appreciate Martinez the person. Some players have questions about Martinez the manager...Some players are chirping, but Martinez hasn’t shut them out, and both sides hope that will lead to better things in the season’s second half.

rileyn · « **Reply #1557 on:** July 19, 2018, 05:20:51 pm »

I don't think I would call that a positive piece. Just the fact that it was written means there is a problem. Bottom line to me is........they all like Davey as a swell guy, but they know he doesn't know what he is doing.

mitlen · « **Reply #1558 on:** July 19, 2018, 05:25:01 pm »

Shouldn't a bench coach for Joe Maddon know some of these things? i.e. warmin' up is burnin' an arm if not used?

rileyn · « **Reply #1559 on:** July 19, 2018, 05:34:29 pm »

Quote from: mitlen on July 19, 2018, 05:25:01 pm

Shouldn't a bench coach for Joe Maddon know some of these things? i.e. warmin' up is burnin' an arm if not used?

A bench coach for Chico's Bail Bonds knows this stuff.

mitlen · « **Reply #1560 on:** July 19, 2018, 05:37:01 pm »

Quote from: rileyn on July 19, 2018, 05:34:29 pm

A bench coach for Chico's Bail Bonds knows this stuff.

I was tryin' not to be too "mean".

It's certainly a head shakin' moment.

skippy1999 · « **Reply #1561 on:** July 19, 2018, 05:39:21 pm »

Quote from: mitlen on July 19, 2018, 05:25:01 pm

Shouldn't a bench coach for Joe Maddon know some of these things? i.e. warmin' up is burnin' an arm if not used?

I think there's probably a big difference when you're the guy in charge, I mean you may know it but at the time you maybe panic a bit? I don't know but yea that article does not reflect very well on Davey

mitlen · « **Reply #1562 on:** July 19, 2018, 05:47:56 pm »

Quote from: skippy1999 on July 19, 2018, 05:39:21 pm

I think there's probably a big difference when you're the guy in charge, I mean you may know it but at the time you maybe panic a bit? I don't know but yea that article does not reflect very well on Davey

Since 2008? He should have picked up a few pointers even under pressure.

Ray D · « **Reply #1563 on:** July 19, 2018, 06:01:20 pm »

Quote from: skippy1999 on July 19, 2018, 05:39:21 pm

I think there's probably a big difference when you're the guy in charge, I mean you may know it but at the time you maybe panic a bit? I don't know but yea that article does not reflect very well on Davey

But that's the purpose of the bench coach. To remind the manager about the important stuff.

DPMOmaha · « **Reply #1564 on:** July 19, 2018, 06:08:52 pm »

It's still different sitting in the pilot chair for the first time.

mitlen · « **Reply #1565 on:** July 19, 2018, 06:29:42 pm »

Quote from: DPMOmaha on July 19, 2018, 06:08:52 pm

It's still different sitting in the pilot chair for the first time.

Not sure why but that gives me little comfort.

KnorrForYourMoney · « **Reply #1566 on:** July 19, 2018, 06:37:31 pm »

Quote from: mitlen on July 19, 2018, 06:29:42 pm

Not sure why but that gives me little comfort.

Maybe because a plane crash is a pretty fitting analogy for the Nats' 2018 season.

DPMOmaha · « **Reply #1567 on:** July 19, 2018, 06:38:19 pm »

Quote from: mitlen on July 19, 2018, 06:29:42 pm

Not sure why but that gives me little comfort.

It's not intended to. Just how it is many times when I observe people who get their first shot at leadership roles in all walks of life. The ones that can learn from those moments and grow and adapt are the ones that end up being successful. We'll see if that's what Martinez becomes or not.

mitlen · « **Reply #1568 on:** July 19, 2018, 06:54:41 pm »

Quote from: DPMOmaha on July 19, 2018, 06:38:19 pm

It's not intended to. Just how it is many times when I observe people who get their first shot at leadership roles in all walks of life. The ones that can learn from those moments and grow and adapt are the ones that end up being successful. We'll see if that's what Martinez becomes or not.

Maybe I was projecting your comment onto an airline or fighter pilot.

mitlen · « **Reply #1569 on:** July 19, 2018, 06:56:41 pm »

Quote from: KnorrForYourMoney on July 19, 2018, 06:37:31 pm

Maybe because a plane crash .....

Yeah, that's pretty much the first thing that came to my mind:

"Good morning ladies and gentlemen. I'm mitlen, your pilot, and this is my first flight in the pilot's seat. I hope to do alright .... "

Natsinpwc · « **Reply #1570 on:** July 19, 2018, 07:03:48 pm »

Quote from: mitlen on July 19, 2018, 06:56:41 pm

Yeah, that's pretty much the first thing that came to my mind:

"Good morning ladies and gentlemen. I'm mitlen, your pilot, and this is my first flight in the pilot's seat. I hope to do alright .... "

Do you have a co pilot? If so, please ask for help!

mitlen · « **Reply #1571 on:** July 19, 2018, 07:04:52 pm »

Quote from: Natsinpwc on July 19, 2018, 07:03:48 pm

Do you have a co pilot? If so, please ask for help!

He's too nervous. Watch this.

Greg_SRT · « **Reply #1572 on:** July 19, 2018, 07:35:03 pm »

I don't think it's very negative or positive towards Dave.

It questions some decisions Dave has made, how things like communication are improving, how the clubhouse likes him and his attitude. How players question somethings but understand everyone can't be happy.

Seems very Dusty from last year. How Starting Pitchers were forced to work more than they wanted to because the bullpen keep allowing hella runs.

Of course the difference is that Dusty is given respect and trust by default. 1. Because Dusty is a classy guy with an incredible resume. 2. He was taking over for Matt Williams and Mr. PotatoHead walking into the clubhouse would have been a relief over Williams.

I've disagreed with Dave many times. Hardly ever with Dusty.

I thought starting Adams in LF was a horrible idea. I understood Dave needed Adams in the lineup. Still thought it was a bad idea. I was wrong.

ZimW1N · « **Reply #1573 on:** July 19, 2018, 07:53:43 pm »

I think this article let's Rizzo off the hook a little to lightly. Our BP was poorly constructed at the beginning of the 2018 season. We had almost no actual middle relief options to spell guys with at the start of the season Shawn Kelley was garbage in April (though he's rebounded) and Gott was stupid bad. Also we lacked any form of inning eating guys like Stammen or Albers.

It's hard to rotate guys under those circumstances.

mitlen · « **Reply #1574 on:** July 19, 2018, 07:55:43 pm »

Quote from: ZimW1N on July 19, 2018, 07:53:43 pm

I think this article let's Rizzo off the hook a little to lightly. Our BP was poorly constructed at the beginning of the 2018 season. We had almost no actual middle relief options to spell guys with at the start of the season Shawn Kelley was garbage in April (though he's rebounded) and Gott was stupid bad. Also we lacked any form of inning eating guys like Stammen or Albers.

It's hard to rotate guys under those circumstances.

... and he hired all the managers we b**** about (minus FR).