Author Topic: PB69 presents "Fire Dave Martinez" (2018)  (Read 56985 times)

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Offline DPMOmaha

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Re: Fire Dave Martinez (2018)
« Reply #1375 on: July 08, 2018, 10:41:15 pm »
they played like professionals for Dusty

the camel-fan has no clue

Dusty had many key injuries and no BP for half a season
He also had Zim, Harper, Murphy and Rendon (after he got thorugh that awful April) playing at about as healthy as possible. Max and Stras were healthy and Gio was a valuable piece of the rotation. I don't know how much of that is on Dusty or Davey, but Dusty had more to work with that Martinez has had this year. The injuries and underperformance are more "key" than the ones Dusty had last year.

Offline Greg_SRT

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Re: Fire Dave Martinez (2018)
« Reply #1376 on: July 09, 2018, 08:18:01 am »
I don't keep a list and can't remember all of them off the top of my head but here's a few:
Being down by 1 in the ninth and Adams on first and he didn't pinch run Matt Reynolds for him. With Adams on first and the other team in a no-doubles defense he should have known that it would take 3 more singles/walks or a HR for Adams to score. Next batter hit a single to right and Adams went to second, Reynolds would have easily been on 3rd with no outs. Nats didn't score and lost game. He did pinch run Reynolds after Adams went to 2nd but it's a case of making a move too late.
Martinez announced his reliever before the pinch hitter was announced and the other team switched to a better left/right or right/left matchup.
Batting Turner 6th and the pitcher 8th is idiotic. Let Turner get on and steal 2nd which is what you expect him to do and then expect the pitcher to drive him in 2 batters later?
Harper's in a huge slump so what could be smarter than batting him first and starting the game off with an almost automatic out? The Nats need Harper but they can't afford to lose games while he's working things out.
Zimmerman making his own spring training schedule. How did that work out?
There are many more but like I said I haven't been writing them down. I could come up with many more if I wanted to waste my time on something that should be obvious to any Nats fan.
One more to think about:
In May Scherzer, Strasburg, Gio and Roark were the top 4 pitchers in the league in pitches thrown per start, all over 100 per start. In July Scherzer doesn't look sharp, Strasburg is on the DL and Gio and Roark stink. Coincidence?

I had written a reply last night but didn't post it. I didn't want to offend you. So I reworked it today.

Yes Dave got it wrong when he thought the Ump announced a hitter. That's the one I was referring to. Problem is that while an obvious mistake, it really had no impact on the game. But it was a mistake he committed.

Everything else on your list and other lists (it's not just you) are things you disagree with or more towards History Channel Aliens conspiracy theories.

Since we piled up some loses, everything is questioned. That's not unusual and will happen with every team in that situation. However, most answers as to why are found in his postgame interview. Why didn't Adams hit for Difo, Why did Madson stay in the game after giving up 4.

We don't ask those questions when we win only when we lose.

A great example of this is Dave's decision to hit Mark instead of MAT. Had Mark put up a lousy AB this board would have threw a fit. But because Mark walked it off we didn't have any issues. And then Mark crazy on offense.

We can't take decisions made, look at how the game went and determine if it was the right decision. That's just uneducated as fans.

Dave the very high majority of the time puts Pitchers and Hitters in good matchups.

Our Rotation 1-4 throwing 90-100 pitches a game isn't something new this year. Their workload isn't different from years past. 1-4 throwing 104 pitches in a game isn't of concern. Dave is asking after innings how they feel and discussing it with the pitchers. The coaches are looking at mechanics and body language.

Others in this thread have a list, and their list is how Dave has overworked the Bullpen. Understand that not everyone can be right about this.

Dave put Harper Leadoff at the beginning of May and it allowed Harper to go ape crap and started the Warm Hugs. It's been suggested that Dave sit Harper now. Harper has to stay in this lineup. But the reason he went into the mega slump has nothing to do with Dave or the staff.

Turner batting 6th has been explained. Like last year with Rendon it has been successful. Dave said it's to get Turner hitting and take pressure of Turner. It worked. Turner has been hitting better. He had good OBP this year but was down on Average.

Lets be honest about Zimerman. While the optics of how he did Spring Training looks bad, He had 1 good year out of 3 before this season started. His issues this year are the same as 2015-16. He is hurt and when he's on the field he is streaky. Nothing about that is Spring Training related. Sorry I am not buying that. He did Spring Training with the club 2015-16.

The Pitching issues began not with # of pitches or innings. Lack of offense is the spark. It causes early innings in games to be like late innings. Stressful! It started in early April but we finally seen it's result in June. When your Staff feel like giving up 3 over 9 is way too much, you are gonna have issues. It builds.

While I understand that we all are watching and engaged with the game, we all know even less than Matt Williams who knows less than Dave.

Dave isn't the reason we lose games. We have 9 innings and 27 outs to score runs. If you really believe that because we didn't pinch run a guy in the ninth in a low scoring game when we are down runs, or if you think Dave not pulling the SP at 4 and 2/3's and allowing a tie game in the 5th... that those are the reasons we lost then I don't know what to tell you.

But the people who get paid to analyze these things, the people paid to report... don't mention what this board brings up as to why Dave sucks. Theres a reason. Because the professionals don't agree with WNFF lists about Dave.

I just did the numbers.

Number of pitches so far 2018
1. Max = 2025/ 19 games/ 127.2 innings.
2. Gio = 1746/ 18 games/ 95.2 innings.
3. Tanner = 1867/ 19 games (18 starts)/ 109.2 innings.

Number of pitches 2017 at ASB.
1. Max = 1930/ 18 games/ 128.1 innings
2. Gio = 1906/ 18 games/ 113.1 innings
3. Tanner = 1821/ 18 games (17 starts)/ 100.2 innings

I got my numbers here http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/sortable.jsp#elem=%5Bobject+Object%5D&tab_level=child&click_text=Sortable+Player+hitting&game_type='R'&season=2018&season_type=ANY&league_code='MLB'&sectionType=sp&statType=hitting&page=1&ts=1531142291203 sorry if I messed up calculations.

Offline varoadking

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Re: Fire Dave Martinez (2018)
« Reply #1377 on: July 09, 2018, 09:32:46 am »
But the people who get paid to analyze these things, the people paid to report... don't mention what this board brings up as to why Dave sucks. Theres a reason. Because the professionals don't agree with WNFF lists about Dave.

Who are these people, and what exactly are they saying?

Offline Greg_SRT

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Re: Fire Dave Martinez (2018)
« Reply #1378 on: July 09, 2018, 09:36:52 am »
Who are these people, and what exactly are they saying?

Who are the analysts and reports? Surely you know the answer.

They are talking lack of offense and poor starts by pitchers.

They aren’t talking pinch runners and removing SP’s before 5.

Offline varoadking

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Re: Fire Dave Martinez (2018)
« Reply #1379 on: July 09, 2018, 10:00:23 am »
Who are the analysts and reports? Surely you know the answer.

No, I really don't...point me to some of these positive analyst reports on lil' d that you're referring to...

Offline Greg_SRT

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Re: Fire Dave Martinez (2018)
« Reply #1380 on: July 09, 2018, 10:16:49 am »
No, I really don't...point me to some of these positive analyst reports on lil' d that you're referring to...

Well... there is your issue right there sir! You either didn't read my post or you just didn't comprehend.

I did not say that WNFF is negative towards dave and analyst are positive. I said the analyst don't agree with WNFF.

WNFF likes to think that dave has given SP a bigger work load and wore them out vs last year. Statistics say WNFF is wrong. The reason analyst and reporters aren't agreeing with WNFF.

Reporters and analyst are using stats. WNFF is using feeling.

WNFF : "Doesn't it feel like dave is over working SP. Dusty wouldn't have."

Stats : Nope! WNFF is wrong.

Facts over feelings.

Offline varoadking

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Re: Fire Dave Martinez (2018)
« Reply #1381 on: July 09, 2018, 10:22:36 am »
Well... there is your issue right there sir! You either didn't read my post or you just didn't comprehend.

I did not say that WNFF is negative towards dave and analyst are positive. I said the analyst don't agree with WNFF.

WNFF likes to think that dave has given SP a bigger work load and wore them out vs last year. Statistics say WNFF is wrong. The reason analyst and reporters aren't agreeing with WNFF.

Reporters and analyst are using stats. WNFF is using feeling.

WNFF : "Doesn't it feel like dave is over working SP. Dusty wouldn't have."

Stats : Nope! WNFF is wrong.

Facts over feelings.

I see...so it's not analysts that are supporting lil' d after all...it's statistics...

Offline Greg_SRT

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Re: Fire Dave Martinez (2018)
« Reply #1382 on: July 09, 2018, 10:25:08 am »
I see...so it's not analysts that are supporting lil' d after all...it's statistics...

I don't think you see much if that's the conclusion you reached.

Offline tzinc

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Re: Fire Dave Martinez (2018)
« Reply #1383 on: July 09, 2018, 10:28:34 am »
when we lose in the playoffs it's Dusty's fault

by the way you have to win to make the playoffs
and you can only win a WS if you actually you know make the playoffs

when we lose all season long it's NOT Camel FanBoi's fault  :hysterical:


Offline Baseball is Life

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Re: Fire Dave Martinez (2018)
« Reply #1384 on: July 09, 2018, 10:28:58 am »
Well... there is your issue right there sir! You either didn't read my post or you just didn't comprehend.

I did not say that WNFF is negative towards dave and analyst are positive. I said the analyst don't agree with WNFF.

WNFF likes to think that dave has given SP a bigger work load and wore them out vs last year. Statistics say WNFF is wrong. The reason analyst and reporters aren't agreeing with WNFF.

Reporters and analyst are using stats. WNFF is using feeling.

WNFF : "Doesn't it feel like dave is over working SP. Dusty wouldn't have."

Stats : Nope! WNFF is wrong.

Facts over feelings.

It's a time honored tradition in baseball to second guess and question the manager. It's just part of the game. Those people on here loving Dusty now were the same ones riding his ass last year. :hysterical:

Offline varoadking

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Re: Fire Dave Martinez (2018)
« Reply #1385 on: July 09, 2018, 10:29:18 am »
I don't think you see much if that's the conclusion you reached.

It was taken directly from your post...nearly verbatim...

Offline Greg_SRT

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Re: Fire Dave Martinez (2018)
« Reply #1386 on: July 09, 2018, 10:36:40 am »
It was taken directly from your post...nearly verbatim...

Nope. Never said stats say he's a good manager.

I said stats don't agree with WNFF.

WNFF thinks Dave has increase workload on SP vs last year.

Stats say no.

You said that Dave not removing Gio and allowing him to throw 5 innings and allow 3 runs cost Nats the game.

Stats say a Pitching staff over 9 will allow at least 3 runs. And that's exactly what happened. 3 runs over 9.

Stats don't say he's go or bad yet.

Stats say you are wrong with how you feel. Do you understand that?

Offline varoadking

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Re: Fire Dave Martinez (2018)
« Reply #1387 on: July 09, 2018, 10:38:15 am »
Try the decaf...

Offline Greg_SRT

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Re: Fire Dave Martinez (2018)
« Reply #1388 on: July 09, 2018, 10:47:16 am »
Try the decaf...

Try stats or some source to prove your theories.

Offline bluestreak

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Re: Fire Dave Martinez (2018)
« Reply #1389 on: July 09, 2018, 11:10:44 am »
I'm lost here...

Offline varoadking

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Re: Fire Dave Martinez (2018)
« Reply #1390 on: July 09, 2018, 11:12:19 am »
I'm lost here...

Yeah, me too...lemme know when you figure it out...  ;)

Offline UMDNats

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Re: Fire Dave Martinez (2018)
« Reply #1391 on: July 09, 2018, 11:17:49 am »
He also had Zim, Harper, Murphy and Rendon (after he got thorugh that awful April) playing at about as healthy as possible. Max and Stras were healthy and Gio was a valuable piece of the rotation. I don't know how much of that is on Dusty or Davey, but Dusty had more to work with that Martinez has had this year. The injuries and underperformance are more "key" than the ones Dusty had last year.

i love that davey is to blame for Roark being a total turd (after being a turd last year, too), murphy having knee surgery and harper playing hero ball. the team was built to run on cruise control all year but basically 2 hitters are playing up to their level (Rendon & Soto) and Taylor has just started to come around. Roark sucks, the 5th starter sucks, Stras got hurt. But Davey should make Fedde and Hellickson better! That's what Dusty did!

Offline tzinc

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Re: Fire Dave Martinez (2018)
« Reply #1392 on: July 09, 2018, 11:51:11 am »
At the end of the day we we look book at career managing records of Davey and Dusty who do you think is going to be the clear winner going down as a really good manager vs a flop

Offline DPMOmaha

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Re: Fire Dave Martinez (2018)
« Reply #1393 on: July 09, 2018, 12:18:10 pm »
At the end of the day we we look book at career managing records of Davey and Dusty who do you think is going to be the clear winner going down as a really good manager vs a flop
Dusty's managerial record his first 4 years wasn't very good. Why are we trying to speculate what Davey's final career record will be before he even gets to the ASB of his first season? That feels like a fools errand.

Offline Greg_SRT

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Re: Fire Dave Martinez (2018)
« Reply #1394 on: July 09, 2018, 12:21:39 pm »
If the team reverts back to who they were before Reset Day and don't make the playoffs... is Dave still here. Ownership will put up with underperforming players. But not underperforming managers. Hell, even managers who weren't underperforming were tossed.

Dave will find another job tho.

Offline UMDNats

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Re: Fire Dave Martinez (2018)
« Reply #1395 on: July 09, 2018, 12:22:43 pm »
At the end of the day we we look book at career managing records of Davey and Dusty who do you think is going to be the clear winner going down as a really good manager vs a flop

whoever wins the world series first

Offline Ray D

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Re: Fire Dave Martinez (2018)
« Reply #1396 on: July 09, 2018, 12:27:30 pm »
At the end of the day we we look book at career managing records of Davey and Dusty who do you think is going to be the clear winner going down as a really good manager vs a flop
If I had to guess, Dusty will be the clear winner.  But that doesn't mean that Martinez will necessarily be a flop.

Online JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Fire Dave Martinez (2018)
« Reply #1397 on: July 09, 2018, 01:06:48 pm »
I believe Martinez will be a good manager and have a good career.  That doesn't defend hiring a rookie manager for an end of the run year for so many players and for the team as structured.  It's not even like Boone or Cora, where you had young teams with a core that will be stable for a while.  It's walk in and produce or its gone.  I don't really think he's been doing abundant dumb things, it's just that there's really no long run with the Murphy / Harper /Gio /Madson / Wieters  squad.

Offline Ray D

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Re: Fire Dave Martinez (2018)
« Reply #1398 on: July 09, 2018, 01:21:26 pm »
I believe Martinez will be a good manager and have a good career.  That doesn't defend hiring a rookie manager for an end of the run year for so many players and for the team as structured.  It's not even like Boone or Cora, where you had young teams with a core that will be stable for a while.

I would like to know what the discussion was when the Nats brain trust got together and decided to replace Dusty with Martinez.

  Was it "we need a new, young, promising manager to grow with the team over the next five or more years, make postseason most of those years, and one or more world series appearances and at least one world series win".   

Or was it "Dusty's freaked up twice; we need a new manager, who we can be sure will get us past the first round next season".

If it was the first, then I suppose you could justify the hire.  But according to common wisdom, it was the second, and it still makes no sense.

Offline Greg_SRT

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Re: Fire Dave Martinez (2018)
« Reply #1399 on: July 09, 2018, 01:44:14 pm »
I would like to know what the discussion was when the Nats brain trust got together and decided to replace Dusty with Martinez.

  Was it "we need a new, young, promising manager to grow with the team over the next five or more years, make postseason most of those years, and one or more world series appearances and at least one world series win".   

Or was it "Dusty's freaked up twice; we need a new manager, who we can be sure will get us past the first round next season".

If it was the first, then I suppose you could justify the hire.  But according to common wisdom, it was the second, and it still makes no sense.

Honestly, teams change based on how the recent past winners have won.

If 5 of the last 6 world series winners were teams built with Free Agency, you would see the market more aggressive this past off season. But they were instead teams who were built from the farm system and then added pieces at the deadline. So that's the winning formula teams try to replicate.

I assume that since recently analytics managers are winning, you try to find one of those.

No different than Home Runs now. Guys who hit .270 and 40 will get more money than a guy who hits .330 and 25. So swing baby swing... hard lol