PB69 presents "Fire Dave Martinez" (2018)

[varoadking]

I would like to know what the discussion was when the Nats brain trust got together and decided to replace Dusty with Martinez.

  Was it "we need a new, young, promising manager to grow with the team over the next five or more years, make postseason most of those years, and one or more world series appearances and at least one world series win".   

Or was it "Dusty's freaked up twice; we need a new manager, who we can be sure will get us past the first round next season".

If it was the first, then I suppose you could justify the hire.  But according to common wisdom, it was the second, and it still makes no sense.

Third choice:  "Rusty is gonna want more money...go find someone who will work on the cheap..."

[UMDNats]

I would like to know what the discussion was when the Nats brain trust got together and decided to replace Dusty with Martinez.

  Was it "we need a new, young, promising manager to grow with the team over the next five or more years, make postseason most of those years, and one or more world series appearances and at least one world series win".   

Or was it "Dusty's freaked up twice; we need a new manager, who we can be sure will get us past the first round next season".

If it was the first, then I suppose you could justify the hire.  But according to common wisdom, it was the second, and it still makes no sense.

It was, "Do we want to commit top-dollar and at least 2 more years to Dusty Baker, or do we want a guy we want to commit to for a long time?" It was similar to Trotz and the Caps this year.

That was the argument, with some dash of the 2nd thrown in to partially blame Dusty for the chokejob.

[dcpatti]

Third choice:  "Rusty is gonna want more money...go find someone who will work on the cheap..."

Honest question though: Was Rusty actually worth more money?  Cause some of those September games and October decisions were really hard to watch.

He can want what he wants; doesn't mean anyone actually has to pay it.

[varoadking]

Honest question though: Was Rusty actually worth more money?  Cause some of those September games and October decisions were really hard to watch.

He can want what he wants; doesn't mean anyone actually has to pay it.

I agree with you 100%.  I think it came down to he was gonna want more money and the Nats were not willing to pay for what he brought.  Almost the opposite of the Trotz situation where he delivered a winner...

So, no...he was not gonna be worth it...but I think finding someone cheap who, in theory, could do no worse, was a prime motivator - why pay $4MM when you can get by with $1MM...

I also don't think Royce was a big Rusty fan, and that played some part...small as it may have been...

[Air Desmond]

Martinez is a coward of a manager. He’ll publicly rip Severino for enjoying a home run. He won’t say a word about Murphy killing a rally with terrible baserunning. Coward and a joke.

[mitlen]

Martinez is a coward of a manager. He’ll publicly rip Severino for enjoying a home run. He won’t say a word about Murphy killing a rally with terrible baserunning. Coward and a joke.

Do I sense some animosity there?

[ToddGack]

I had written a reply last night but didn't post it. I didn't want to offend you. So I reworked it today.

Yes Dave got it wrong when he thought the Ump announced a hitter. That's the one I was referring to. Problem is that while an obvious mistake, it really had no impact on the game. But it was a mistake he committed.

Everything else on your list and other lists (it's not just you) are things you disagree with or more towards History Channel Aliens conspiracy theories.

Since we piled up some loses, everything is questioned. That's not unusual and will happen with every team in that situation. However, most answers as to why are found in his postgame interview. Why didn't Adams hit for Difo, Why did Madson stay in the game after giving up 4.

We don't ask those questions when we win only when we lose.

A great example of this is Dave's decision to hit Mark instead of MAT. Had Mark put up a lousy AB this board would have threw a fit. But because Mark walked it off we didn't have any issues. And then Mark crazy on offense.

We can't take decisions made, look at how the game went and determine if it was the right decision. That's just uneducated as fans.

Dave the very high majority of the time puts Pitchers and Hitters in good matchups.

Our Rotation 1-4 throwing 90-100 pitches a game isn't something new this year. Their workload isn't different from years past. 1-4 throwing 104 pitches in a game isn't of concern. Dave is asking after innings how they feel and discussing it with the pitchers. The coaches are looking at mechanics and body language.

Others in this thread have a list, and their list is how Dave has overworked the Bullpen. Understand that not everyone can be right about this.

Dave put Harper Leadoff at the beginning of May and it allowed Harper to go ape crap and started the Warm Hugs. It's been suggested that Dave sit Harper now. Harper has to stay in this lineup. But the reason he went into the mega slump has nothing to do with Dave or the staff.

Turner batting 6th has been explained. Like last year with Rendon it has been successful. Dave said it's to get Turner hitting and take pressure of Turner. It worked. Turner has been hitting better. He had good OBP this year but was down on Average.

Lets be honest about Zimerman. While the optics of how he did Spring Training looks bad, He had 1 good year out of 3 before this season started. His issues this year are the same as 2015-16. He is hurt and when he's on the field he is streaky. Nothing about that is Spring Training related. Sorry I am not buying that. He did Spring Training with the club 2015-16.

The Pitching issues began not with # of pitches or innings. Lack of offense is the spark. It causes early innings in games to be like late innings. Stressful! It started in early April but we finally seen it's result in June. When your Staff feel like giving up 3 over 9 is way too much, you are gonna have issues. It builds.

While I understand that we all are watching and engaged with the game, we all know even less than Matt Williams who knows less than Dave.

Dave isn't the reason we lose games. We have 9 innings and 27 outs to score runs. If you really believe that because we didn't pinch run a guy in the ninth in a low scoring game when we are down runs, or if you think Dave not pulling the SP at 4 and 2/3's and allowing a tie game in the 5th... that those are the reasons we lost then I don't know what to tell you.

But the people who get paid to analyze these things, the people paid to report... don't mention what this board brings up as to why Dave sucks. Theres a reason. Because the professionals don't agree with WNFF lists about Dave.

I just did the numbers.

Number of pitches so far 2018
1. Max = 2025/ 19 games/ 127.2 innings.
2. Gio = 1746/ 18 games/ 95.2 innings.
3. Tanner = 1867/ 19 games (18 starts)/ 109.2 innings.

Number of pitches 2017 at ASB.
1. Max = 1930/ 18 games/ 128.1 innings
2. Gio = 1906/ 18 games/ 113.1 innings
3. Tanner = 1821/ 18 games (17 starts)/ 100.2 innings

I got my numbers here http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/sortable.jsp#elem=%5Bobject+Object%5D&tab_level=child&click_text=Sortable+Player+hitting&game_type='R'&season=2018&season_type=ANY&league_code='MLB'&sectionType=sp&statType=hitting&page=1&ts=1531142291203 sorry if I messed up calculations.

I was clearly wrong when I said you must have only seen 1 game this year. If I had gone back and read some of your previous posts I would have seen that it was your lack of baseball knowledge that was the problem. Many of your posts are long, long posts that require an interpreter and show you don't know what you are talking about.
Pinch running a fast runner for a slow runner in a down by 1 in the top of the 9th inning game is something even a boys club coach knows to do. Not knowing that says a lot about you. Just because Martinez explains his decisions doesn't mean they make sense. They usually don't.
I don't base my opinion on wins and loses, I base them on baseball decisions and Martinez has made many questionable decisions. You are posting to me but keep saying we. I am not part of any we on this board.
The first 2 months the top 4 starters had low ERAs and led the league in pitches per start. Now after being over used you have Scherzer not as sharp, Strasburg on the DL and Gio and Roark stink. You don't think Martinez is to blame? They all want to stay in the game, quit trying to be their best friend and be their manager. Take them out when you should not when they want. He has to protect his starters. Good SPs are hard to find. Relievers can be acquired. Since 2012, 26 of the 30 teams that made the playoffs had team ERAs in the top 5. Protect your starters arms or forget the playoffs.
You said Davey batting Harper leadoff allowed Harper to go "ape crap". Harper is hitting .217 with a .288 OBP batting leadoff this year. Since Martinez batted Harper leadoff on May 1st he has hit .206 with a .325 OBP.
Harper walked 38 times in 131 plate appearances before Martinez put him in the leadoff spot on May 1st and has walked about half as often, 38 times in 257 plate appearances since May 1st.  That's going "ape crap"?
I didn't respond to all of your ridiculous post because I tried to cut this short because I know people don't like long posts. I wasn't successful so apologies to everyone who read this.
I think if people read your posts they will see that you believe anything you hear on TV and because of your apparent lack of any kind of baseball background you can't form any opinion for yourself.

[ToddGack]

I would like to know what the discussion was when the Nats brain trust got together and decided to replace Dusty with Martinez.

  Was it "we need a new, young, promising manager to grow with the team over the next five or more years, make postseason most of those years, and one or more world series appearances and at least one world series win".   

Or was it "Dusty's freaked up twice; we need a new manager, who we can be sure will get us past the first round next season".


If it was the first, then I suppose you could justify the hire.  But according to common wisdom, it was the second, and it still makes no sense.

Many opinions on why Dusty was let go. It could have been money but I believe it was because he didn't get past the first round of the playoffs. Dusty has a very, very poor history when it comes to the playoffs.
Dusty's teams overall playoff record is 23-32. That's .418 or equivalent to a 68-94 regular season record.
Dusty's teams have lost his last 6 playoff series.
Dusty's teams have only won 3 out of 12 playoff series.
Dusty has no World Series Championships in 22 years as a manager.
That is a pretty pathetic resume if you are looking for a manager to take you to the next level.
Dusty has a decent regular season record of 1863-1636 .532%. An average of 86-76 regular season record.

[bluestreak]

Many opinions on why Dusty was let go. It could have been money but I believe it was because he didn't get past the first round of the playoffs. Dusty has a very, very poor history when it comes to the playoffs.
Dusty's teams overall playoff record is 23-32. That's .418 or equivalent to a 68-94 regular season record.
Dusty's teams have lost his last 6 playoff series.
Dusty's teams have only won 3 out of 12 playoff series.
Dusty has no World Series Championships in 22 years as a manager.
That is a pretty pathetic resume if you are looking for a manager to take you to the next level.
Dusty has a decent regular season record of 1863-1636 .532%. An average of 86-76 regular season record.

Joe Maddon’s playoff record is .485

[ToddGack]

Joe Maddon’s playoff record is .485

I'm surprised it's that good. I don't think Maddon is a good manager. Just like most managers, he lost when he had bad players and he won when he had good players. He has good players in Chicago and is winning but he also had by far the best team in baseball in 2016 and nearly lost the championship because of his boneheaded managing. I don't think you need to be a good manager to win the regular season, you just can't be a bad manager. The playoffs are when a manager can make a difference and Maddon almost cost the Cubs the Championship. The writers love him because he gives them something to write about and when he does something that works they can't write enough about it but when it doesn't they don't have much to say. I was happy when I heard Dusty wasn't going to be back but when I heard that they were going to sign Maddon's bench coach I was already calling for Dusty to come back. I do like Dusty, I just don't like Dusty as manager of the Nats.

[Jeff in Gaithersburg]

Many opinions on why Dusty was let go. It could have been money but I believe it was because he didn't get past the first round of the playoffs. Dusty has a very, very poor history when it comes to the playoffs.
Dusty's teams overall playoff record is 23-32. That's .418 or equivalent to a 68-94 regular season record.
Dusty's teams have lost his last 6 playoff series.
Dusty's teams have only won 3 out of 12 playoff series.
Dusty has no World Series Championships in 22 years as a manager.
That is a pretty pathetic resume if you are looking for a manager to take you to the next level.
Dusty has a decent regular season record of 1863-1636 .532%. An average of 86-76 regular season record.

Wasn't even as much that Dusty couldn't get past the 1st round the last 2 years as it was his horrible decision making in those series. Dusty's problem was he didn't think outside the box and managed in the postseason like it was the middle of the season. Questionable decisions that might not have been noticeable in June or July when the team is 10+ games up can have consequences in October. 

If he really thought the team had a better chance to win a series with a 38-year old broken down Jayson Werth in LF, who hit .139 last September, than Howie Kendrick, who Rizzo acquired to help in the postseason, and was a .300 hitter, and only got 2 ABs the whole series, he didn't deserve another chance to manage this team. And that mistake was just one of many in that series. Doesn't mean Davey is the right choice now, but not bringing Dusty back was.

[Greg_SRT]

I was clearly wrong when I said you must have only seen 1 game this year. If I had gone back and read some of your previous posts I would have seen that it was your lack of baseball knowledge that was the problem. Many of your posts are long, long posts that require an interpreter and show you don't know what you are talking about.
Pinch running a fast runner for a slow runner in a down by 1 in the top of the 9th inning game is something even a boys club coach knows to do. Not knowing that says a lot about you. Just because Martinez explains his decisions doesn't mean they make sense. They usually don't.
I don't base my opinion on wins and loses, I base them on baseball decisions and Martinez has made many questionable decisions. You are posting to me but keep saying we. I am not part of any we on this board.
The first 2 months the top 4 starters had low ERAs and led the league in pitches per start. Now after being over used you have Scherzer not as sharp, Strasburg on the DL and Gio and Roark stink. You don't think Martinez is to blame? They all want to stay in the game, quit trying to be their best friend and be their manager. Take them out when you should not when they want. He has to protect his starters. Good SPs are hard to find. Relievers can be acquired. Since 2012, 26 of the 30 teams that made the playoffs had team ERAs in the top 5. Protect your starters arms or forget the playoffs.
You said Davey batting Harper leadoff allowed Harper to go "ape crap". Harper is hitting .217 with a .288 OBP batting leadoff this year. Since Martinez batted Harper leadoff on May 1st he has hit .206 with a .325 OBP.
Harper walked 38 times in 131 plate appearances before Martinez put him in the leadoff spot on May 1st and has walked about half as often, 38 times in 257 plate appearances since May 1st.  That's going "ape crap"?
I didn't respond to all of your ridiculous post because I tried to cut this short because I know people don't like long posts. I wasn't successful so apologies to everyone who read this.
I think if people read your posts they will see that you believe anything you hear on TV and because of your apparent lack of any kind of baseball background you can't form any opinion for yourself.

Harper hadn't hit a homer from middle of April until May 1st. Harper hit leadoff May 1st because he was constantly walked. Dave said if they want to walk the first hitter of the game go ahead. Harper hit a home run May 1st, 2nd, and 4th... twice. 4 home runs in 4 games at leadoff. Won all 4 games... at leadoff. Started the warm hugs. You are the first person I heard complain about this.

I already posted the pitching numbers that say you are wrong. I'll do it again

Number of pitches so far 2018
1. Max = 2025/ 19 games/ 127.2 innings.
2. Gio = 1746/ 18 games/ 95.2 innings.
3. Tanner = 1867/ 19 games (18 starts)/ 109.2 innings.

Number of pitches 2017 at ASB.
1. Max = 1930/ 18 games/ 128.1 innings
2. Gio = 1906/ 18 games/ 113.1 innings
3. Tanner = 1821/ 18 games (17 starts)/ 100.2 innings

Sorry broseph you are wrong. It's not my fault that you didn't bother to check your theory before you posted it. You posted the theory, I posted the actual numbers, you are wrong... and continue talking that theory as if the numbers aren't posted directly above you.

But clearly I am the one without knowledge. Tell me how he has overworked them if they have the same work load as last year.

[JCA-CrystalCity]

General observation - posts read better if you don't waste a lot of time insulting the person who disagrees with you. Means we have to edit less, mute less, etc...

[Smithian]

I don't blame Dave Martinez for this crap storm. Regression from key cogs (Zim, Harp, Murph) and a starting pitching staff that has been worst case scenario are things he can't control.

[Natsinpwc]

General observation - posts read better if you don't waste a lot of time insulting the person who disagrees with you. Means we have to edit less, mute less, etc...

What's the fun then?

[Greg_SRT]

General observation - posts read better if you don't waste a lot of time insulting the person who disagrees with you. Means we have to edit less, mute less, etc...

Understood and you got it Captain.

[Greg_SRT]

Thought these 2 were pretty good.

https://www.si.com/mlb/2018/07/06/washington-nationals-nl-east

http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/23992370/wrong-nationals

[ToddGack]

Harper hadn't hit a homer from middle of April until May 1st. Harper hit leadoff May 1st because he was constantly walked. Dave said if they want to walk the first hitter of the game go ahead. Harper hit a home run May 1st, 2nd, and 4th... twice. 4 home runs in 4 games at leadoff. Won all 4 games... at leadoff. Started the warm hugs. You are the first person I heard complain about this.

I already posted the pitching numbers that say you are wrong. I'll do it again

Number of pitches so far 2018
1. Max = 2025/ 19 games/ 127.2 innings.
2. Gio = 1746/ 18 games/ 95.2 innings.
3. Tanner = 1867/ 19 games (18 starts)/ 109.2 innings.

Number of pitches 2017 at ASB.
1. Max = 1930/ 18 games/ 128.1 innings
2. Gio = 1906/ 18 games/ 113.1 innings
3. Tanner = 1821/ 18 games (17 starts)/ 100.2 innings

Sorry broseph you are wrong. It's not my fault that you didn't bother to check your theory before you posted it. You posted the theory, I posted the actual numbers, you are wrong... and continue talking that theory as if the numbers aren't posted directly above you.

But clearly I am the one without knowledge. Tell me how he has overworked them if they have the same work load as last year.

You are clearly not capable of understanding the game of baseball.  Averages are fine in general but if you can't see that after Gio had a string of 114, 89, 110, 111, 111, and 114 pitches in 29 days and a season ERA of  2.10 and then see him fall off a cliff in the next 7 games with an ERA of 7.18 and only 31.1 IP and don't think there's a connection then you just don't have a clue.
If one of the "experts'' on TV said this you would believe it. It's clear from some of your posts that your opinion is whatever you hear on TV and you are just not capable of understanding the game on your own.

And I guess you believe that Martinez moving Harper to lead off made him an All-Star. You like stats and Harper's stats are terrible as a leadoff hitter and he has been worse since he led off.  If it was so successful he would be leading off now. You are doing the other team a favor by putting your best power hitter leading off.

At least he solved the Harper being constantly walked problem as he was walked 38 times in 131 plate appearances before he moved him to leadoff and he has only walked 38 times in 219 plate appearance since. Not sure that's a good thing but he accomplished his goal there.

[Greg_SRT]

You are clearly not capable of understanding the game of baseball.  Averages are fine in general but if you can't see that after Gio had a string of 114, 89, 110, 111, 111, and 114 pitches in 29 days and a season ERA of  2.10 and then see him fall off a cliff in the next 7 games with an ERA of 7.18 and only 31.1 IP and don't think there's a connection then you just don't have a clue.
If one of the "experts'' on TV said this you would believe it. It's clear from some of your posts that your opinion is whatever you hear on TV and you are just not capable of understanding the game on your own.

And I guess you believe that Martinez moving Harper to lead off made him an All-Star. You like stats and Harper's stats are terrible as a leadoff hitter and he has been worse since he led off.  If it was so successful he would be leading off now. You are doing the other team a favor by putting your best power hitter leading off.

At least he solved the Harper being constantly walked problem as he was walked 38 times in 131 plate appearances before he moved him to leadoff and he has only walked 38 times in 219 plate appearance since. Not sure that's a good thing but he accomplished his goal there.

First it was about SP, now just Gio?

Harper is an All Star because he's popular among fans.

I didn't hear on TV that you were incorrect about the number of pitches this year vs last year. I just googled the stat. Took less than 5 minutes. 

[Ray D]

You are clearly not capable of understanding the game of baseball.

These ad hominem attacks are obnoxious.

[PowerBoater69]

These ad hominem attacks are obnoxious.

Oh come on, both are willing participants, and the level of insults is fairly mild. Swallow the whistle and let them play.

[Greg_SRT]

Oh come on, both are willing participants, and the level of insults is fairly mild. Swallow the whistle and let them play.

Correct, I am not insulted. But I was asked to stop so I did.

[JCA-CrystalCity]

Correct, I am not insulted. But I was asked to stop so I did.

Actually, I asked both you more generally. 

You are clearly not capable of understanding the game of baseball.  Averages are fine in general but if you can't see that after Gio had a string of 114, 89, 110, 111, 111, and 114 pitches in 29 days and a season ERA of  2.10 and then see him fall off a cliff in the next 7 games with an ERA of 7.18 and only 31.1 IP and don't think there's a connection then you just don't have a clue.
If one of the "experts'' on TV said this you would believe it. It's clear from some of your posts that your opinion is whatever you hear on TV and you are just not capable of understanding the game on your own.

And I guess you believe that Martinez moving Harper to lead off made him an All-Star. You like stats and Harper's stats are terrible as a leadoff hitter and he has been worse since he led off.  If it was so successful he would be leading off now. You are doing the other team a favor by putting your best power hitter leading off.

At least he solved the Harper being constantly walked problem as he was walked 38 times in 131 plate appearances before he moved him to leadoff and he has only walked 38 times in 219 plate appearance since. Not sure that's a good thing but he accomplished his goal there.

I agree with Spider that "you don't have a clue" is mild stuff, and we all criticize each other's knowledge of baseball. That said, the strikeout language is totally personal and really has nothing to do with the point being made.

[Greg_SRT]

Understood. I don't get upset on the internet. If someone is jabbing at me, I jab back.

If everyone on here thinks I know nothing, that's fine. If everyone on here thinks thinks Max, Gio, and Tanner threw more pitches this year, that's fine too. But I am going to see if it's true and provide the stat that says if it's right or not.

[PowerBoater69]

Understood. I don't get upset on the internet. If someone is jabbing at me, I jab back.

If everyone on here thinks I know nothing, that's fine. If everyone on here thinks thinks Max, Gio, and Tanner threw more pitches this year, that's fine too. But I am going to see if it's true and provide the stat that says if it's right or not.

I have no idea what you do or don't know about baseball, I can't read your posts. How about sub headers? Or break up each point into a separate post. At least you use paragraphs, but still way too much text to read through.