Author Topic: MLB & Division Watching (2010)  (Read 123255 times)

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Offline Coladar

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Re: MLB & Division Watching (2010)
« Reply #1975 on: September 26, 2010, 01:35:31 am »
There's no question Bautista is juicing. You just don't see increases like this. In fact, all year every game wrap up talks about how no one has ever had ** more home runs after hitting less than ten the year before. Those guys closest to Bautista all had something like 100ABs the year before.

To those saying that PEDs don't add that many HRs. You take a guy who hit a lot of fly balls 350-380 feet, give him some shrunken you know whats to add an extra 20 feet to each hit? That'll do it. I'd be curious to see a chart of Bautista's fly ball distances and numbers last year, but regardless. Nothing like this has ever happened before. So there's one of two things. He had the most amazing improvement to his swing in 120 years, or he's juicing. Let's face it, the odds in this day and age are overwhelming for only one of those options, and we all know which one.

Offline Vega

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Re: MLB & Division Watching (2010)
« Reply #1976 on: September 26, 2010, 01:36:35 am »
I don't give a damn if he is juicing. I stopped caring about juicers a long time ago.

Offline Coladar

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Re: MLB & Division Watching (2010)
« Reply #1977 on: September 26, 2010, 01:44:54 am »
I don't give a damn if he is juicing. I stopped caring about juicers a long time ago.

I care because he's got almost 15 more home runs than the next closest guy in all of baseball. A cheater is a cheater, and since we are all fans of the game, if he is juicing, and it allows him to have an insane number more HRs a year than anyone else in baseball, it is pathetic. I can't understand not being intensely passionate about PED users, cheating is cheating and it clearly (see the 90s HR totals versus every other decade) has a ridiculous impact on the game and provides an advantage that cannot be overcome by non-PED users. If you have to destroy your body to compete with cheaters, there is something hugely wrong.

Not to mention that even if everyone did it and you couldn't use that argument, it destroys the purity of baseball and the history of it. Seasons with cheaters, records broken by cheaters, it destroys the rich history that makes baseball such an amazing game. 

Offline Vega

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Re: MLB & Division Watching (2010)
« Reply #1978 on: September 26, 2010, 01:47:32 am »
Still don't care.

Offline ronnynat

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Re: MLB & Division Watching (2010)
« Reply #1979 on: September 26, 2010, 02:39:23 am »
In fact, all year every game wrap up talks about how no one has ever had ** more home runs after hitting less than ten the year before.

So why is Bautista able to do it when none of the steroid users from the 90's/early 2000's could?

I'm sure Bautista has been tested and it's been well documented that he changed his swing mechanics. Doesn't necessarily mean that he has more power. It's just a better home run swing.

I believe his FB% is up 13% from last year.

Offline Coladar

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Re: MLB & Division Watching (2010)
« Reply #1980 on: September 26, 2010, 02:51:26 am »
Who knows what Bautista is on. It could be that it has a far more dramatic effect than Steroids or HGH. Or maybe most of the guys on it in the 90s were on it from the start of their careers, or did it gradually, or Bautista was just right on the line of being a fly ball hitter instead of a HR hitter.

But I'll reemphasize. We don't know what he's on, if he's on anything at all. If he is, whatever it is is new. It's likely far better than whatever the guys took in the 90s given two decades to improve the science/impact of it as well as the undetectability.

And I'm certainly not ruling out he improved his swing. He clearly did. But I don't buy that that alone gives a guy such a dramatic increase in power over one year. You add improving someones swing with a brand new PED and thats the only way I see increasing your HR total by over 40 in a single year with a similar number or ABs. It just doesn't happen naturally, not that many. And if Bautista is clean, he's figured something out more suddenly and more dramatically than anyone in 120 years, and deserves a ton of credit. 

Offline bglide

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Re: MLB & Division Watching (2010)
« Reply #1981 on: September 26, 2010, 02:58:41 am »
Bautista is a small guy as well.  Absolute juicer.  No questions asked. 

Offline Coladar

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Re: MLB & Division Watching (2010)
« Reply #1982 on: September 26, 2010, 03:06:49 am »
One other comment I wanted to add. Look, I hope he is doing it naturally. Not only does that mean such an accomplishment wasn't gained by cheating, but it's another example of what makes baseball so great. Small guy, lackluster career. Then boom, just by fixing his swing he's able to go from lackluster to one of the most amazing years HR wise since steroids were stopped. It would be a remarkable story.

My point for the second post though, is this. I just hope MLB is smart enough to keep samples of his blood from this season. I don't buy anything is truly undetectable. So whether it takes them a month, a year or a century to be able to detect whatever this new PED is that was mentioned earlier in the thread, the second they do they need to test Bautista's samples. Not to discredit him, but to clear him. Because no matter what else happens, what else is said, until those tests come back clean of whatever new PED is out there in 2010, there will always, always be doubt on his accomplishments this year. That's just a given in the post PED era. If this had happened in the 60s there would have been a couple raised eyebrows. Now? Bautista's name will never be clear 100%. So here's hoping they keep his samples, because the worst thing of all would be if he did do this naturally and there is forever a doubt as to whether this was legit or not.

Offline houston-nat

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Re: MLB & Division Watching (2010)
« Reply #1983 on: September 26, 2010, 04:30:49 am »
So why is Bautista able to do it when none of the steroid users from the 90's/early 2000's could?

I'm sure Bautista has been tested and it's been well documented that he changed his swing mechanics. Doesn't necessarily mean that he has more power. It's just a better home run swing.

I believe his FB% is up 13% from last year.

I'm with you, Ronny. The truth is that no known steroid user has ever experienced as dramatic an improvement as Jose Bautista, from taking steroids for any period of time. The average juicer was somebody like Nook Logan, Jerry Hairston Jr, or Miguel Tejada. But even if you point to Mark McGwire - nobody really thinks that McGwire without the juice would have only hit 15 home runs.

Offline Coladar

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Re: MLB & Division Watching (2010)
« Reply #1984 on: September 26, 2010, 04:45:07 am »
I'm with you, Ronny. The truth is that no known steroid user has ever experienced as dramatic an improvement as Jose Bautista, from taking steroids for any period of time. The average juicer was somebody like Nook Logan, Jerry Hairston Jr, or Miguel Tejada. But even if you point to Mark McGwire - nobody really thinks that McGwire without the juice would have only hit 15 home runs.

I can certainly buy this argument, aside from one issue. No player, EVER, has witnessed this dramatic of an improvement. So using that as the underpinnings of an argument invalidates PEDs just as much as it does improving his swing. Thus why I think it's a little of both. Never mind that, as I mentioned, whatever PED he may or may not be taking obviously isn't what McGwire, Bonds, Sosa, et al. took. If it were, it'd be detected. So who knows what it is, and thus just how powerful it is. If anything, using the argument that this hasn't been done before by anyone, PED or otherwise, just furthers the fact it is partially due to PEDs in my mind. Since he's coming up clean and there apparently is a new drug out there, the fact no one has ever had such a dramatic improvement points to some new and ridiculously strong PED. Increasing strength, reaction time, etc. etc. etc.

Bottom line, if this is an isolated event and Bautista does what he does in the future, I'll accept it's just a miraculous improvement in his swing. But if sometime in the next five years we start to see more "miracles" or a dramatic increase in HRs per year, then I'm going with PEDs to my grave.

Something I find interesting is the dramatic number of HRs by the Blue Jays. Now that the stories have come out, you find trainers were the suppliers. And a number of Blue Jays are hitting a significant number of HRs this year. That could go both ways. Pointing to a trainer supplying them with some brand new PED as a test case for the manufacturer before going wide, or an amazing hitting coach.

Vernon Wells hit 20 in 08, 15 in 09. 30 thus far. Doubled last years number. Lind and Hill have had less this year than last. Overbay went from 15 and 16 to 20 so far. Buck went from 9 and 8 to 18 this year. Another doubler. Gonzalez has 16 so far with Toronto, in 85 games. In the other 65 with another team, he had 6. He had 16 with the Reds in 07, a hitter park by far, and 8 with two teams last year. Most of the other guys, there are no standouts. But particularly Buck and Wells, and possibly Gonzalez, you're seeing a number of guys hitting far more HRs than they have in the past. It could mean one of two things, excellent coaching or a trainer supplying PEDs. Obviously these guys don't knock on doors asking for PEDs themselves. Personally, I would be more apt to believe it was natural if no one else on the team hit a dramatically higher number of HRs. That's not the case.

But it's all conjecture at this point. The next couple of years will tell the story of whether this is natural or some new, dramatically effective and undetectable PED.

Offline Potomac Cannons

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Re: MLB & Division Watching (2010)
« Reply #1985 on: September 26, 2010, 11:56:24 am »
Bautista is swinging for the fences every at bat.  His BABIP is .238.  That, and changed swing mechanics, makes perfect sense.  BB% is up, K% is down.

The guy is waiting for his pitch, swinging as hard as he can, and getting a ton of HRs despite a horrible rate on balls in play.  Only looking at the HR #s would lead one to believe he's juicing, looking at everything would lead one to think he's just trying to hit every ball as far as he can with no concern for any other result.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: MLB & Division Watching (2010)
« Reply #1986 on: September 26, 2010, 12:13:16 pm »
Was Maris juicing? 16, 39, 61, 33, 23 seems fluky to me. There was a statistician who basically argued that given the amount of players in baseball, a Roger Maris season should happen every few decades, I think it's entirely possible Bautista is having that season.
Posnanski says Maris's status in the game would have been comparable to Ben Oglivie or Dwight Evans hitting 62.  Just not a sufficient star to hold a glamour record.

Offline DPMOmaha

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Re: MLB & Division Watching (2010)
« Reply #1987 on: September 26, 2010, 02:02:47 pm »
Bautista is swinging for the fences every at bat.  His BABIP is .238.  That, and changed swing mechanics, makes perfect sense.  BB% is up, K% is down.

The guy is waiting for his pitch, swinging as hard as he can, and getting a ton of HRs despite a horrible rate on balls in play.  Only looking at the HR #s would lead one to believe he's juicing, looking at everything would lead one to think he's just trying to hit every ball as far as he can with no concern for any other result.
Shouldn't he be playing for the Dbacks then?

Offline Potomac Cannons

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Re: MLB & Division Watching (2010)
« Reply #1988 on: September 26, 2010, 02:08:51 pm »
Shouldn't he be playing for the Dbacks then?

Nah, he doesn't strike out nearly enough.

Offline tomterp

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Re: MLB & Division Watching (2010)
« Reply #1989 on: September 26, 2010, 06:57:03 pm »
But I'll reemphasize. We don't know what he's on, if he's on anything at all. If he is, whatever it is is new. It's likely far better than whatever the guys took in the 90s given two decades to improve the science/impact of it as well as the undetectability.

And I'm certainly not ruling out he improved his swing. He clearly did. But I don't buy that that alone gives a guy such a dramatic increase in power over one year. You add improving someones swing with a brand new PED and thats the only way I see increasing your HR total by over 40 in a single year with a similar number or ABs. It just doesn't happen naturally, not that many. And if Bautista is clean, he's figured something out more suddenly and more dramatically than anyone in 120 years, and deserves a ton of credit. 

SARMs (Selective Androgen Receptor Modulators) possibly, per the Will Carroll article I posted this week.

Offline CALSGR8

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Re: MLB & Division Watching (2010)
« Reply #1990 on: September 26, 2010, 11:00:18 pm »
Too get off Bautista for a  minute.  Did you all know that Josh Hamilton stayed away from all the Clinching hoopla?  Gotta admire the guy for that!!

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_league_stew/post/Hamilton-avoids-temptation-skips-Rangers-champa?urn=mlb-272472


Offline PC

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Re: MLB & Division Watching (2010)
« Reply #1991 on: September 26, 2010, 11:06:02 pm »
You suck Mariano Rivera!

Offline DPMOmaha

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Re: MLB & Division Watching (2010)
« Reply #1992 on: September 26, 2010, 11:10:20 pm »
Too get off Bautista for a  minute.  Did you all know that Josh Hamilton stayed away from all the Clinching hoopla?  Gotta admire the guy for that!!
The guy knows his limits. 

Offline PC

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Re: MLB & Division Watching (2010)
« Reply #1993 on: September 26, 2010, 11:28:58 pm »
You suck too, Papelbon!  This has been some dreadful "closing" in this Yankees-Red Sox game.

Offline PC

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Re: MLB & Division Watching (2010)
« Reply #1994 on: September 27, 2010, 12:05:29 am »
What a terrible ending...walking in the winning run.  They won tonight but the Yankees don't look very good for the playoffs.

Offline bglide

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Re: MLB & Division Watching (2010)
« Reply #1995 on: September 27, 2010, 02:03:00 am »
I respect Hamilton.  He should win the MVP, but the injury might cost him.  Has the most pure talent in the majors. 

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: MLB & Division Watching (2010)
« Reply #1996 on: September 27, 2010, 08:22:17 am »
Switched to my Pat the Patriot (not a Flying Elvis the Patriot) hat today for work from my Hanging Sox at.  I realize that the Hanging Sox hat was a tribute to several of the bullpen's breaking pitches. 

Story of the Red Sox season was the complete failure of the bullpen, moreso than the injuries. As it turns out, the emphasis on defense in the offseason did not hurt the offense.  they ended up second in baseball in runs scored, I think. Losing half the starting line up did not kill them as they got far better than could be expected play out of casts off like Hall and Darnell McDonald and call ups like Nava and Kalish. 

The injuries were huge, may have cost them 3 or 4 wins that they'll be short of the playoffs, but they were done in by the pitching. The starters had 2 off years, one expected great year, and one surprise great year and 2 to be expected rotation fillers, but the complete collapse of papelbon, delcarmen, okajima, and ramon ramirez overcame all the good out of Bard's year and forced Atchison into a #3 role rather than spare part mop up he was good at.  Papelbon blew 8 saves by himself.  'nuf ced.

Online imref

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Re: MLB & Division Watching (2010)
« Reply #1997 on: September 27, 2010, 09:40:38 am »
So we knocked the Braves out of the WC yesterday, they now trail SD by a half game.

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: MLB & Division Watching (2010)
« Reply #1998 on: September 27, 2010, 09:57:53 am »
I'm hate rooting for the braves, but SD and Tampa making the playoffs in the same year gives this team way to much of a look you can win cheap excuse

Offline tomterp

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Re: MLB & Division Watching (2010)
« Reply #1999 on: September 27, 2010, 10:09:17 am »
I'm hate rooting for the braves, but SD and Tampa making the playoffs in the same year gives this team way to much of a look you can win cheap excuse

Well, quite obviously, you can win cheap.