Author Topic: PB69 presents "Fire Dave Martinez" (2018)  (Read 56914 times)

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Offline Air Desmond

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Re: Fire Dave Martinez (2018)
« Reply #1575 on: July 20, 2018, 04:39:28 am »
Sounds like we’re one losing streak away from a Werthian moment. Michael A Taylor reading the lineup card and marching into Davey’s office: “When do you think you lost this team?”

I’m kidding.

5.5 gb 66 games left. The surge starts Friday.

Offline KnorrForYourMoney

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Re: Fire Dave Martinez (2018)
« Reply #1576 on: July 20, 2018, 06:32:07 am »
...  and he hired all the managers we b**** about (minus FR).     :)

Acta was also a Bowden guy (and he managed like it).

Offline ToddGack

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Re: Fire Dave Martinez (2018)
« Reply #1577 on: July 20, 2018, 06:32:47 am »
They can say the players like Martinez all they want but if anybody doesn't think there's a problem in the clubhouse then they are just kidding themselves.

Online Slateman

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Re: Fire Dave Martinez (2018)
« Reply #1578 on: July 20, 2018, 07:41:27 am »
Sounds like there was an issue with overuse of the pen, but Martinez has been working to correct it.

Of course, that overuse is also because Tanner, Gio, Jefry, Erick, and Jeremy averaged less than 5 innings per start from June 1 to the ASB

Offline Smithian

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Re: Fire Dave Martinez (2018)
« Reply #1579 on: July 20, 2018, 08:45:12 am »
Sounds like there was an issue with overuse of the pen, but Martinez has been working to correct it.

Of course, that overuse is also because Tanner, Gio, Jefry, Erick, and Jeremy averaged less than 5 innings per start from June 1 to the ASB
Starting pitching has done the pen no favors.

I also have no heard people say a manager of a team without dominant starting pitching be complimented for his pen usage. Ned Yost won a World Series and he is supposedly the worst.

Managing is overrated. These are men surrounded by staffs and more information than they could even process in a truly statistic based game. Every manager does basically same things. This isn't basketball or football where a coach could truly swing an entire strategy.

Offline mitlen

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Re: Fire Dave Martinez (2018)
« Reply #1580 on: July 20, 2018, 08:48:46 am »
Acta was also a Bowden guy (and he managed like it).

:lol:

Offline PowerBoater69

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Re: Fire Dave Martinez (2018)
« Reply #1581 on: July 20, 2018, 09:15:16 am »
Sounds like there was an issue with overuse of the pen, but Martinez has been working to correct it.

Of course, that overuse is also because Tanner, Gio, Jefry, Erick, and Jeremy averaged less than 5 innings per start from June 1 to the ASB

Overuse wasn't total innings, it was total appearances + warm ups without appearances. Martinez needs to get more outs per reliever per game.

But the pen complaining is nothing new, that's all they ever do. Martinez would be better off not concerning himself with whether the relievers are happy.

Online Slateman

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Re: Fire Dave Martinez (2018)
« Reply #1582 on: July 20, 2018, 09:42:18 am »
Overuse wasn't total innings, it was total appearances + warm ups without appearances. Martinez needs to get more outs per reliever per game.

But the pen complaining is nothing new, that's all they ever do. Martinez would be better off not concerning himself with whether the relievers are happy.

I think it depends. I can understand not wanting to warm up and not come in. I mean, we ripped Matt Williams for doing that, IIRC. So the communication aspect of it certainly needs to be addressed.

But nagging about innings .... I mean, is he supposed to just punt the game? They're 5.5 back. They might want to gut check themselves, because they're going to need to be used more in the second half. To have even a sliver of a chance means Martinez is going to have a fairly quick hook on the rotation, particularly Gio, Tanner, and Hellickson.

This team really lacks a durable long reliever. Frankly, it should be Hellickson, but then we'd need two starting pitchers.

Offline dcpatti

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Re: Fire Dave Martinez (2018)
« Reply #1583 on: July 20, 2018, 10:03:25 am »


This team really lacks a durable long reliever. Frankly, it should be Hellickson, but then we'd need two starting pitchers.

Grace has been pretty decent in long relief, but he can't be that and the LOOGY at the same time. So they need to figure out what his role is going to be, and stick with it.   

Offline mitlen

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Re: Fire Dave Martinez (2018)
« Reply #1584 on: July 20, 2018, 10:06:01 am »
Grace has been pretty decent in long relief, but he can't be that and the LOOGY at the same time. So they need to figure out what his role is going to be, and stick with it.   

That could be a "solution" as well.    Define everyone's role and stick with it.    Options can change but what's the general plan?

Online Slateman

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Re: Fire Dave Martinez (2018)
« Reply #1585 on: July 20, 2018, 10:15:17 am »
Grace has been pretty decent in long relief, but he can't be that and the LOOGY at the same time. So they need to figure out what his role is going to be, and stick with it.   

This pitching staff can't afford a LOOGY right now. Not with Tanner Roark and Jeremy Hellickson giving you the choice of 5 innings or giving up 4+ runs.

Maybe it means making Voth/Rodriguez a reliever. Maybe it means going and getting a Craig Stammen type.

Offline dracnal

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Re: Fire Dave Martinez (2018)
« Reply #1586 on: July 20, 2018, 12:16:20 pm »
The only thing in the article that had me raise an eyebrow was a line to the effect of the bullpen was happier now because Davey was listening to them on how they wanted to be used. 

It's not much, but it sounds like the inmates driving the bus and they're happier for it. Doesn't say much for leadership from the skipper, nice guy or not.

Offline dcpatti

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Re: Fire Dave Martinez (2018)
« Reply #1587 on: July 20, 2018, 12:29:54 pm »
The only thing in the article that had me raise an eyebrow was a line to the effect of the bullpen was happier now because Davey was listening to them on how they wanted to be used. 

It's not much, but it sounds like the inmates driving the bus and they're happier for it. Doesn't say much for leadership from the skipper, nice guy or not.

I took it more as he was doing it wrong before and they helped him learn how to do it right (or at least, less wrong).  I don't see anything wrong with a rookie manager taking a big dose of advice from veteran guys like Madson and Doolittle, especially Madson because he's been around a long time, had a lot of success, and likely has a wealth of knowledge to share.   There are worse things a manager can do than listen to Ryan Madson about better ways to manage a bullpen.

Offline UMDNats

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Re: Fire Dave Martinez (2018)
« Reply #1588 on: July 20, 2018, 12:38:28 pm »
Quote
But to a man, relievers said they would prefer to start an inning rather than come in during a jam.

HUGE, if true! :roll:

This article's tl;dr is: "rookie manager adapts and learns on the job" aka it's a nothingburger but people out for blood will use it as gospel at the altar of dusty baker

Offline bluestreak

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Re: Fire Dave Martinez (2018)
« Reply #1589 on: July 20, 2018, 12:45:11 pm »
HUGE, if true! :roll:

This article's tl;dr is: "rookie manager adapts and learns on the job" aka it's a nothingburger but people out for blood will use it as gospel at the altar of dusty baker

He’s a guy that was supposed to be experienced from spending years on Maddon’s Bench and he didn’t know what he was doing costing the team wins and DL stints for the relievers.
So it’s great that he’s finally starting to get it, but it’s defintiely news that he didn’t for the first half.

Offline dcpatti

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Re: Fire Dave Martinez (2018)
« Reply #1590 on: July 20, 2018, 12:54:33 pm »
He’s a guy that was supposed to be experienced from spending years on Maddon’s Bench and he didn’t know what he was doing costing the team wins and DL stints for the relievers.
So it’s great that he’s finally starting to get it, but it’s defintiely news that he didn’t for the first half.

It sounds like some of the stuff our guys were complaining about is actually Maddon 101, like the tons of short appearances rather than a smaller number of full innings and the "come in at the start of the inning vs firefighting inherited runners" thing.   So maybe the Nats need to un-Maddon him a bit. Honestly I think any manager, rookie or experienced, is going to have something of a learning curve because each bullpen is really different. Even our current bullpen is radically different from our opening day bullpen-- we started out with an over-abundance of lefties and now we have pretty much none, Shawn Kelley is good again, etc-- so the manager needs to always be adapting.

Offline UMDNats

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Re: Fire Dave Martinez (2018)
« Reply #1591 on: July 20, 2018, 12:54:48 pm »
He’s a guy that was supposed to be experienced from spending years on Maddon’s Bench and he didn’t know what he was doing costing the team wins and DL stints for the relievers.
So it’s great that he’s finally starting to get it, but it’s defintiely news that he didn’t for the first half.

I think the relievers nagging is not simply on Martinez. The warm-up-but-don't-use thing is a problem for, like most managers. The issue comes from our starters going 4 or 5 innings for 4 of every 5 days for over a month. That's a reason for over-use.

Quote
Solis lead the team with 40 appearances through 96 team games, but more than 60 relievers around the majors have appeared more often .


We're clearly having a major issue here!

Quote
He needed to use those guys because his team’s leads were not big enough to be handed to anyone else, and indeed, that was true. Before the rotation collapsed in late June, the Nationals had the smallest average run difference per game of any team in baseball: 1.90 runs. At that point, the league median was 2.27, according to BaseballMusings.com.

The players can have their beef on communication and Martinez has had some growing pains, but he's had sound reasoning for this crap.

Quote
“A lot of times when Davey asks, you just tell him, ‘Yeah, yeah, yeah, I’m good,’ ” Madson said. “He’s got a lot of stuff to worry about. It’s typical for bullpen guys not to be as honest with the manager. That’s just the dynamic there.”

Their more honest messages, as conveyed to pitching coach Derek Lilliquist and other members of the coaching staff, were getting lost in translation.

So, they tell Davey they're good, the pitching coach or some crap doesn't tell Davey, "He needs a day," and Davey uses him. Seems like a staff issue with someone being a turd and relievers needing to be honest.

Quote
“Over the last maybe month or so, maybe since we got Herrera, he’s gone around to the relievers and been a lot more proactive with that communication,” Doolittle said. “I think that’s helped.”

“He’s saying with that, ‘Please let me know; give me information,’ ” Madson said. “ . . . I would never talk to a normal manager about that. He’s closing that gap.”

Cool, so he's worked on it and cut out the middle man. A good manager adapts when a problem presents itself.

Quote
“With a veteran group, I think we all expect to come into a team and say we’ve all been there; we just want things to go boom, boom, boom and be a piece of cake. But we also all know it’s not like that,” Shawn Kelley said. “ . . . It’s funny: I think you could probably go anywhere and complain about the manager as a reliever. I don’t know if any manager has ever had seven relievers say, ‘He was perfect.’ ”

As always, Shawn Kelley has a good perspective on things. Relievers nag about coming in with men on base all the time. Of course they want clean innings. Of course they want to be used once they warm up. Baseball isn't perfect.

I am pretty meh on Martinez so far but people using this as Exhibit A on why he sucks are ignoring the actual story here.

Online Slateman

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Re: Fire Dave Martinez (2018)
« Reply #1592 on: July 20, 2018, 12:58:48 pm »
HUGE, if true! :roll:

This article's tl;dr is: "rookie manager adapts and learns on the job" aka it's a nothingburger but people out for blood will use it as gospel at the altar of dusty baker
Every reliever says this. Yeah, no crap, who wants to come in with no outs and two runners on.

Offline mitlen

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Re: Fire Dave Martinez (2018)
« Reply #1593 on: July 20, 2018, 01:52:32 pm »
Every reliever says this. Yeah, no crap, who wants to come in with no outs and two runners on.

The good ones?  Or at least, they don't nag about it publicly.

Offline dracnal

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Re: Fire Dave Martinez (2018)
« Reply #1594 on: July 20, 2018, 03:02:42 pm »
I took it more as he was doing it wrong before and they helped him learn how to do it right (or at least, less wrong).  I don't see anything wrong with a rookie manager taking a big dose of advice from veteran guys like Madson and Doolittle, especially Madson because he's been around a long time, had a lot of success, and likely has a wealth of knowledge to share.   There are worse things a manager can do than listen to Ryan Madson about better ways to manage a bullpen.

That's a fair point.  There are worse things than learning from vets, when you're a rookie manager. But my experience is that it's not great long term for employees to think 'Man, the boss has no clue, does he?' I've worked for bosses like that and it's really not been overly great for morale or performance. Hopefully, it's as you say and he'll get it figured out pretty quick.

Offline spidernat

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Re: Fire Dave Martinez (2018)
« Reply #1595 on: July 20, 2018, 03:04:25 pm »
The good ones?  Or at least, they don't nag about it publicly.



we have a bunch of nages on this roster

Offline dcpatti

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Re: Fire Dave Martinez (2018)
« Reply #1596 on: July 20, 2018, 03:15:43 pm »
That's a fair point.  There are worse things than learning from vets, when you're a rookie manager. But my experience is that it's not great long term for employees to think 'Man, the boss has no clue, does he?' I've worked for bosses like that and it's really not been overly great for morale or performance. Hopefully, it's as you say and he'll get it figured out pretty quick.

I think that’s true, whether you’re managing a baseball team or any other kind of workplace. I also think most employees don’t expect their bosses to know or understand the intricacies of their day-to-day routines, and most employees feel good when their boss trusts them and solicits their advice. It sounds like Martinez is at least humble enough to know that there’s much he doesn’t know. Maybe that lack of knowledge/experience forces some leaders to step up from within the team— something we’ve had a sad lack of, for years. Sounds like at least in the Pen they are.

Online Slateman

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Re: Fire Dave Martinez (2018)
« Reply #1597 on: July 20, 2018, 09:07:06 pm »
Its not really his fault,  but Martinez will have to be fired. This level of effort and the mental mistakes are simply inexcusable

Offline rileyn

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Re: Fire Dave Martinez (2018)
« Reply #1598 on: July 20, 2018, 09:48:46 pm »
Can Slateman and Greg SRT just come around and agree that we need to flush this loser?  Atlanta is playing winning baseball and doing all of the little things while we continue to stumble and bumble.  No way Stras and Max go at it with Dusty (or any responsible adult) in the dugout.

Atlanta and other teams were working on fundamentals and playing crisp, clean baseball in spring training, while were obsessing with camels, launch angles, pitching wedges, double secret practices, and other such nonsense.  Good riddance.  For his own good, fire him tonight. 

Online Slateman

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Re: Fire Dave Martinez (2018)
« Reply #1599 on: July 20, 2018, 09:57:33 pm »
Can Slateman and Greg SRT just come around and agree that we need to flush this loser?  Atlanta is playing winning baseball and doing all of the little things while we continue to stumble and bumble.  No way Stras and Max go at it with Dusty (or any responsible adult) in the dugout.

Atlanta and other teams were working on fundamentals and playing crisp, clean baseball in spring training, while were obsessing with camels, launch angles, pitching wedges, double secret practices, and other such nonsense.  Good riddance.  For his own good, fire him tonight. 

And why do you think another manager is going to get these players to do "the little things?"