Author Topic: Nationals new 1B discussion  (Read 77295 times)

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Offline houston-nat

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Re: Nationals new 1B discussion
« Reply #1500 on: January 02, 2011, 05:23:28 pm »
Prospects, trash heap, and medical cases.  Welcome to the Washington Nationals...

It's not just bums who are prospects. Every star was a prospect once, too.

Offline Lintyfresh85

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Re: Nationals new 1B discussion
« Reply #1501 on: January 02, 2011, 05:26:06 pm »
Well Jayson Werth doesn't fall into any of those categories. 

One out of 25/or one FA in years doesn't exactly signal change.

TO THIS POINT.... the offseason has been nothing more than playing a shell game with contracts. Drop Dunn, Guzman and Hammer and add Werth... and come out slightly lower on the payroll than last year... and say you made progress.

Offline MarquisDeSade

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Re: Nationals new 1B discussion
« Reply #1502 on: January 02, 2011, 05:32:17 pm »
One out of 25/or one FA in years doesn't exactly signal change.

TO THIS POINT.... the offseason has been nothing more than playing a shell game with contracts. Drop Dunn, Guzman and Hammer and add Werth... and come out slightly lower on the payroll than last year... and say you made progress.

Hey now, you forgot the two prospects we got for Willingham...

Offline KnorrForYourMoney

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Re: Nationals new 1B discussion
« Reply #1503 on: January 02, 2011, 05:35:26 pm »
Hey now, you forgot the two prospects we got for Willingham...

How much does pyrite go for these days? :?

Offline Tyler Durden

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Re: Nationals new 1B discussion
« Reply #1504 on: January 02, 2011, 05:52:51 pm »
One out of 25/or one FA in years doesn't exactly signal change.

TO THIS POINT.... the offseason has been nothing more than playing a shell game with contracts. Drop Dunn, Guzman and Hammer and add Werth... and come out slightly lower on the payroll than last year... and say you made progress.

What's the point of this, though?  They could have at least made a few fans happy if they kept Dunn and just sold a 'we're making progress' PR campaign.

I don't understand the letting go of Dunn and signing of Werth if all they wanted to do was keep payroll low while claiming to make progress.

I don't think Rizzo is incompetent - I just don't get the lack of a plan A/B/C for 1B, because from where I sit, that's what it looks like.

Offline PC

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Re: Nationals new 1B discussion
« Reply #1505 on: January 02, 2011, 06:06:19 pm »
Hey now, you forgot the two prospects we got for Willingham...

I'm holding my "So, we got nothing for Nick Johnson" post for two years, to replace 'Nick Johnson' with 'Josh Willingham'.   :|

Offline MarquisDeSade

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Re: Nationals new 1B discussion
« Reply #1506 on: January 02, 2011, 06:17:31 pm »
I'm holding my "So, we got nothing for Nick Johnson" post for two years, to replace 'Nick Johnson' with 'Josh Willingham'.   :|

What were people saying when that trade went down?

Offline houston-nat

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Re: Nationals new 1B discussion
« Reply #1507 on: January 02, 2011, 06:19:45 pm »
When the Nick Johnson trade went down, it was about 60% "we got nothing for Nick Johnson" and 40% "well, at least we got SOMETHING for a three-month rental who's two weeks from the DL." I'm not sure if there was a draft pick alternative.

Offline PC

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Re: Nationals new 1B discussion
« Reply #1508 on: January 02, 2011, 06:20:08 pm »
What were people saying when that trade went down?

I don't know what everybody else said but I said the A's will get more out of Josh Willingham this season than we'll get out of those two "prospects", forever.

Offline PC

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Re: Nationals new 1B discussion
« Reply #1509 on: January 02, 2011, 06:25:00 pm »
When the Nick Johnson trade went down, it was about 60% "we got nothing for Nick Johnson" and 40% "well, at least we got SOMETHING for a three-month rental who's two weeks from the DL." I'm not sure if there was a draft pick alternative.

But they actually did get SOMETHING from Nick Johnson.    As a matter of fact, they got quite a bit from Johnson, 24 runs, 28 hits, 2 HRs and he batted .279.

We got ZILCH in return.  NOTHING!  NADA!  ZERO!  NOT ONE MAJOR LEAGUE PITCH from Aaron Thompson!

That is a horrible trade.

Offline houston-nat

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Re: Nationals new 1B discussion
« Reply #1510 on: January 02, 2011, 06:26:31 pm »
Jeez. I didn't take sides.

But really if we would have won 3 more games with Nick than without him... who cares?

Offline PANatsFan

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Re: Nationals new 1B discussion
« Reply #1511 on: January 02, 2011, 06:26:33 pm »
But they actually did get SOMETHING from Nick Johnson.    As a matter of fact, they got quite a bit from Johnson, 24 runs, 28 hits, 2 HRs and he batted .279.

We got ZILCH in return.  NOTHING!  NADA!  ZERO!  NOT ONE MAJOR LEAGUE PITCH from Aaron Thompson!

That is a horrible trade.

We got 1B open for Adam Dunn. Not a bad trade from that perspective.

Offline PC

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Re: Nationals new 1B discussion
« Reply #1512 on: January 02, 2011, 06:32:55 pm »
We got 1B open for Adam Dunn. Not a bad trade from that perspective.

Giving up a major league player and getting a player who never plays in the majors should be condemned as a bad trade.  If it's not then what is a bad trade?  If that's not a bad trade then that makes trading really, really easy, at least as far as being held accountable is concerned.

Online RD

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Re: Nationals new 1B discussion
« Reply #1513 on: January 02, 2011, 06:45:22 pm »
So many points to address ...

Lee vs LaRoche. I find it hard to see how anyone could argue which is the vastly superior player. Neither are stars but are decent players. Both had are solid defenders and produced similar numbers last year, with LaRoche being slightly better. When you add in age, I don't see how anyone can flat out say that Lee is the b etter player. Maybe he does have a better 2011 ... I don't see how you can sit there and say unequivocally that he's the better player. Based on their ages, its more likely LaRoche will maintain his numbers and Lee will have a bit of a decline.

Replacing Dunn and Willigham ... You do realize that Werth plus LaRoche is a considerably better duo, offensively? Those two hit for a higher combined average, knocked in more runs, while having just 2 less home runs. That doesn't factor in Werth's ability to steal 20 bags. The fact that they are much, much better on defense means its a pretty large upgrade. I know Im making a large assumption that LaRoche will be here. I will be upset like others if we don't add him, as he is the last of the definite starter material on the market. The off season isn't over and I believe the front office will add him to the lineup.

As for the comparison between the O's and Nats ... First of all, who cares? Second, the two best players on either team are Nationals. Zimmerman and Werth are without question the top two players, and both are real difference makers. Like someone else mentioned, as long as we have average players at other spots, we come out on top because we have the real all star caliber players.

When you start to break down the positions, some really are letting their negative attitude effect their thinking. Brian Roberts is entering his mid 30's and is coming off an injury riddled season. Do you really think the back will be magically healed and not give him any more problems? He's supplied a little pop for a 2b, but he was a great base stealer and was a threat on the bases with range on defense. That's not going to be the same as he gets older, especially with back issues.

Espinosa hit more bombs and had more rbi in less than half the plate appearances last year. He may not hit for as high an average as Roberts next year, but should hit for more power and drive in more runs. Thats if Roberts is even healthy. I realize offensive output isnt judged solely by those numbers, but the 2b position is a question mark for Baltimore too. There's much more potential for downside with them based on age and injury with Roberts.

I also find it strange that you just give the edge at the SS spot because Hardy is a veteran, but that doesn't mean much. Hardy and Desmond had similar numbers last year. Similar average and ops. Desmond had a few more at bats, so the power comes out about the same, but Desmond still drove in and scored more runs. Also stole more bases last year than Hardy has in his career.

Desmond is already the better player, even if only slightly. When you factor in his age and the likely improvements, he is of course the better option.

Going position by position, Id say the O's have the edge at catcher, CF, and LF(and thats only by considering Scott their LF, which is a pretty big stretch). The Nats have the better SS, 3b, and RF. I consider 2b a wash because of factors I mentioned earlier, and 1b up in the air at the moment because the off season isn't complete. If we add LaRoche, it is at least a wash. More likely, it's slightly in our favor.

Neither team is going to push for the playoffs, but the Orioles are not, by any stretch of the imagination, a far better team than the Nationals.


Online RD

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Re: Nationals new 1B discussion
« Reply #1514 on: January 02, 2011, 06:48:22 pm »
Giving up a major league player and getting a player who never plays in the majors should be condemned as a bad trade.  If it's not then what is a bad trade?  If that's not a bad trade then that makes trading really, really easy, at least as far as being held accountable is concerned.

You'll never be wrong when using hindsight.

You can't judge a team years later. At the time, it was a solid trade. We got a young, lefty that had some upside for an oft injured player, that hadn't really done much for the team.

Thompson may not have amounted to much, but you can't criticize the move years later. It wasn't a b ad trade at the time.

Offline Lintyfresh85

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Re: Nationals new 1B discussion
« Reply #1515 on: January 02, 2011, 06:48:30 pm »
You do realize Espinosa just had surgery that usually saps power for a year, right?

How's a .220 hitter with no OBP skills and limited power sound?

Funny you mention defense with Werth/LaRoche, but then you ignore it in the Hardy/Desmond comparison... is it because Desmond is a negative at SS?

Offline Nathan

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Re: Nationals new 1B discussion
« Reply #1516 on: January 02, 2011, 06:52:48 pm »
Sounds like just the man for the Nats!

Offline PC

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Re: Nationals new 1B discussion
« Reply #1517 on: January 02, 2011, 06:53:13 pm »
The BEST way to judge by hindsight.  Hell, the only way to judge a trade is by hindsight because that's the only way you know what becomes of the traded players.

And Thompson "not amounting to much" is being generous, obviously!

Online RD

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Re: Nationals new 1B discussion
« Reply #1518 on: January 02, 2011, 06:55:19 pm »
If his power is zapped for a bit, I would expect his batting average to go up a bit. He was never considered a big time bat, but his average was better than his power when he was drafted. I think he's gotten caught up trying to swing for the fences when he had some success. If the power isn't there, his approach will likely be altered.

I don't ever expect him to hit .300 but if he hits .260, steals 20 bases, and plays 150 games thats solid production from a 2b.

Could still be more production than a 33-34 year old second baseman with back issues.

And again, it comes back tot he issue of ... Who cares? Neither team really should be considered with the bottom line of W's and L's next year. Clearly, you always want to win. Neither team is capable of contending, so it comes down to toeing the line of going all out for W's and developing people. Overall, the two teams will probably be similar, but we'll have some kids at key spots like Desmond and Espinosa improving themselves for the 2012 season, when we should have a better shot at contending for the post season.

Im not making the point that the Nationals are much better team. I just think it's pretty ridiculous to make the claim that the Orioles are the far superior team. There simply is nothing to suggest such a claim. Other than the negative crowd around here that has nothing to do but nag and moan.

Online RD

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Re: Nationals new 1B discussion
« Reply #1519 on: January 02, 2011, 06:56:06 pm »
The BEST way to judge by hindsight.  Hell, the only way to judge a trade is by hindsight because that's the only way you know what becomes of the traded players.

And Thompson "not amounting to much" is being generous, obviously!

Nick Johnson hasn't done crap either.

You act like he has been an all star, and a difference maker for someone else.

Offline MarquisDeSade

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Re: Nationals new 1B discussion
« Reply #1520 on: January 02, 2011, 07:18:01 pm »
If his power is zapped for a bit, I would expect his batting average to go up a bit. He was never considered a big time bat, but his average was better than his power when he was drafted. I think he's gotten caught up trying to swing for the fences when he had some success. If the power isn't there, his approach will likely be altered.

I'd hope so with those 30 SO in 103 AB.

Offline spidernat

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Re: Nationals new 1B discussion
« Reply #1521 on: January 02, 2011, 08:00:00 pm »
We got 1B open for Adam Dunn. Not a bad trade from that perspective.

:lmao:


Offline PANatsFan

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Re: Nationals new 1B discussion
« Reply #1522 on: January 02, 2011, 08:00:50 pm »
:lmao:



Moving him out of the outfield lowered the defensive damage. It helped the major league club.

Offline EdStroud

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Re: Nationals new 1B discussion
« Reply #1523 on: January 02, 2011, 08:01:24 pm »
:lmao:



Spidey hits the 8:00:00 PM post on the head

Offline The Chief

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Re: Nationals new 1B discussion
« Reply #1524 on: January 02, 2011, 09:04:42 pm »
If you brought in an unbiased observer into the equation... I'm confident most, if not all, would agree the O's outclass the Nats roster by a large margin.

Doesn't make it true.  And I think you're wrong about them being better.  But then again, the offseason isn't over yet.