Plan "B"

[KnorrForYourMoney]

I just find it sort of amusing you and Spider come on here for hours each day spewing plenty of hostility towards ownership for not getting every free agent they go after, threatening not to go to games, spend money, etc. (which is bullcrap, because you both know you will or spend your time Nats wise around here), and yet offer little to no viable fixes for the team other than to spend, spend, spend money that isn't even yours to spend and making ridiculous statements about how things are run when you have no direct insight on to what goes on behind such negotiations.

First of all, they have no responsibility to suggest viable fixes.

They are paying fans.  If they don't like the way this team's performing, they have every right to nag about the product on the field.  They are not GM's - Jim Bowden, Stan Kasten, etc. are the ones being paid to run this team.  The onus is on them to make the team better.  Spider and hammonds just want the team to get better, by hook or crook, so that they're not wasting time and money on a team that will never reward them with the joys of winning.

[spidernat]

so then why are people complaining about the Nats doing nothing?

Because not everyone believes that's the only way to get it done. 

[cmdterps44]

Sure they put the money on the table, its good, i think if we were willing to go higher we should've but we cant now its in the past. I just don't think we should die down after that and not do anything besides sign players who might have a chance at coming back (D-Cab, Corey Patterson). We need a First Baseman, and Dunn may be willing to play there and hes the Left handed power we said we were going after. Its a shame we can't also sign a pitcher like sheets, who is risky, but when there hes solid or any other pitcher.

I just think if we end our off season now with out even attempting to sign/trade for something, next years going to be a shame.

[HalfSmokes]

I just think if we end our off season now with out even attempting to sign/trade for something, next years going to be a shame.

are Willingham and Olson Nothing?
Tex didn't want to play here- if he did we would have been given the opportunity to go higher.

[hammondsnats]

well said actavation 

[sportsfan882]

Sure they put the money on the table, its good, i think if we were willing to go higher we should've but we cant now its in the past. I just don't think we should die down after that and not do anything besides sign players who might have a chance at coming back (D-Cab, Corey Patterson). We need a First Baseman, and Dunn may be willing to play there and hes the Left handed power we said we were going after. Its a shame we can't also sign a pitcher like sheets, who is risky, but when there hes solid or any other pitcher.

I just think if we end our off season now with out even attempting to sign/trade for something, next years going to be a shame.

If it is a "shame" then we are freaked for a long time because that means all of our young players sucked.

It won't be the Lerners fault in that case.

[MrMadison]

Because not everyone believes that's the only way to get it done. 

then how do you get it done?

you say "get it done" like it's just as easy as saying "you, come play for us now. here's money".  and as we've seen, it doesn't *quite* work like that.

if the *good* Free agents look at the Nats and say "pffffft I'm signing somewhere else", then what else is there to do?  the only thing the Lerners can do here is put the money on the table.  but if they refuse to take it,  and decide to take someone else's money, then what?  do we sign some crappy paul lo duca-esque free agents just so we can say we spent money, even if it ultimately does the team no good?

I know it's the Lerner's fault that Free Agents don't want to play here, but really what can be done about that *right now*?

sure we could put together a mega package of every decent prospect we have, but how much will that realistically get us back? the Padres and Brewers aren't gonna trade us their first baseman.

so what else is out there?

[KnorrForYourMoney]

well, if the *good* Free agents look at the Nats and say "pffffft I'm signing somewhere else", then what else is there to do?  the only thing the Lerners can do here is put the money on the table.  but if they refuse to take it,  and decide to take someone else's money, then what?

When the really good free agents don't want to play for your team, you have to get inventive and sign medium range free agents and use them in unconventional ways.  Fill your team up with good situational hitters and use them in advantageous situations.

But when you have a $55 mil payroll and you lose 100 games, it sends a message to the top free agents that they're going to have to carry the team, and those free agents would much rather join a winner.

[spidernat]

I just find it sort of amusing you and Spider come on here for hours each day spewing plenty of hostility towards ownership for not getting every free agent they go after, threatening not to go to games, spend money, etc. (which is bullcrap, because you both know you will or spend your time Nats wise around here), and yet offer little to no viable fixes for the team other than to spend, spend, spend money that isn't even yours to spend and making ridiculous statements about how things are run when you have no direct insight on to what goes on behind such negotiations.

So you want me to offer viable fixes yet you already implied that my sage advice is pointless because I don't have access to the Lerner's ears and they don't read this website.

Then the Lerners will raise their fists with their diamond studded rings and curse the day they didn't come onto the WNFF and take sage advice from men with years of MLB experience.

And you're right, I don't have direct access to the negotiations but neither do you. But I reserve my right to hold my opinion. I don't understand why you take such offense to anyone choosing not to tow the company line but that's your thing so have at it. If hammondsnats and I (and anyone else for that matter) choose to criticize the way they are running this team and to make a stand (as futile as it may be in your eyes) in whatever way we choose then that's our right. You can be the company man all you want. That's your right as well.

 from years of rape from the MLB, the media propagating certain myths to the decisions of the Lerners and the players just not living up to their part. To blame it all on the Lerners and continue the pointless "Lerners are Cheap Crusade" is just a waste of time and very narrow minded.

What about insisting that the "MLB rape" and the imagined media mythology about the Nats is partly responsible for the fact that the team is still such crap? Isn't that also pointless as well as a ridiculous waste of time? I think it's stupid to actually believe that the media is responsible for spreading myths and for having a bias against the Nats (I forgot who the moron is who said that Olney had it in for the Nats because they refused to trade Soriano in '06). 

The Yanks are always happy to take on a few more bandwagon fans if spending money out the ass is your thing. Baltimore is always gagging for new fans to possibly walkout on them in the future. But if not, you just need to suck it up and stop whining.

This is too ridiculous to even comment on but isn't it narrow minded to tell someone how to be a fan of a team? If it isn't then where is the manual teaching me how to be a Nats fan. You obviously have read it so maybe you can pass it on to hammondsnats and me.

And hammonds, don't back down from your opinions. Don't let anyone here tell you how you should feel or think about your own team.

 

[MrMadison]

When the really good free agents don't want to play for your team, you have to get inventive and sign medium range free agents and use them in unconventional ways.  Fill your team up with good situational hitters and use them in advantageous situations.

that really sounds like a pretty way of saying "sign some crappy redemption projects and hope they  turn it around and/or get healthy and/or behave."

which if done, would get the Lerners even MORE ridicule than they get now.

really, we're in a bind here.  the decent Free Agents don't want to play here, and we don't want the crappy ones.

yet people seem to believe that it's just as simple as "throw some money down on the table and any free agent we want will instantly take it". and then they get upset, bash the lerners for being cheap, and say they aren't gonna go to games anymore(or spend money or whatever) when it doesn't work like that.

[sportsfan882]

When the really good free agents don't want to play for your team, you have to get inventive and sign medium range free agents and use them in unconventional ways.  Fill your team up with good situational hitters and use them in advantageous situations.

But when you have a $55 mil payroll and you lose 100 games, it sends a message to the top free agents that they're going to have to carry the team, and those free agents would much rather join a winner.

I think we have gotten "inventive" over the last 2 off-seasons by packaging junk and acquiring the likes of Milledge, Dukes, Olsen and Willingham. We also have found a diamond in the rough in Willie Harris and have gotten decent production out of players such as Odalis Perez and Ronnie Belliard.

The onus now is on the young guys to perform to the levels we all expect them to.

[cmdterps44]

are Willingham and Olson Nothing?
Tex didn't want to play here- if he did we would have been given the opportunity to go higher.

I didnt say they're nothing, i said we shouldn't end our off season now.

Tex didn't want to play here, thats fine, but if the oppurtunity was our door at going higher, and we were willing to go higher, why not drop a huge offer from the start?

If it is a "shame" then we are freaked for a long time because that means all of our young players sucked.

It won't be the Lerners fault in that case.

Why rely on just them. I don't want that to be the case because we are already in a risky position as is, relying on NJ to be here for another year, which we don't know will happen.

We also dont have any power on this team, besides one aspect. All potential power. Dukes/Milledge, etc, If "healthy" they'll smack 20 homers. Thats all good and stuff, Im all looking forward to it, i just think we should send Dunn an offer before its to late, hes been known to hit his "40 homers" and his OBP is really nice, something we need. Anything we can do to help out our youngsters now so that we don't have to wait a year+ to attract the "big free agents".

[hammondsnats]

And hammonds, don't back down from your opinions. Don't let anyone here tell you how you should feel or think about your own team.

There is no point.  Some have blinders on, some just flat out disagree.  That's fine.

I just think it's funny how everyone in the world likes to crap on Dan Snyder, but here I bring up the Lerners and state that I think they aren't good owners ... I get crap on. 

Everyone has an opinion, I think they are cheap and haven't done much good for us ... but there is no use to continue to get in this argument. 

So ... moving on ... let's get Adam Dunn.

[MrMadison]

So ... moving on ... let's get Adam Dunn.

say we offer him 5 years, 80 million. (random number i pulled out of my ass)

he says no, signs with a contender for a similar amount, or less.

then what?

[spidernat]

are Willingham and Olson Nothing?
Tex didn't want to play here- if he did we would have been given the opportunity to go higher.

Opportunity? How about just make the offer anyway and force him to turn it down. Had they made an offer that would be considered too good to turn down yet he still turned it down then I would absolve the Lerners but they didn't. Why did they need permission to make a great offer? Why did they need Teixeira to tell them it was OK to make another offer? Make the offer and see what happens. I believe they were worried that he would accept the offer and they really didn't want to spend the money.

Everyone here felt that to have a real shot they would have to blow everyone out of the water. They had to make a serious splash but we know they failed to do that. They offered 5 extra million over a period of 8 years. Not exactly blowing the yankees out of the water. It doesn't really matter anymore. He sign with the yankees and so freak Teixeira. But that doesn't mean that my opinion is swayed and I have to pretend that the Lerners were serious about spending money because I'm not convinced of it. That's my personal conviction and I don't give a crap who accepts it or who has an issue with it.

[spidernat]

say we offer him 5 years, 80 million. (random number i pulled out of my ass)

he says no, signs with a contender for a similar amount, or less.

then what?

That's clearly an offer that would be considered blowing other teams out of the water, at least at this point. That did not happen with Teixeira, contrary to what some people would have us believe.

[sportsfan882]

we offer him 5 years, 80 million. (random number i pulled out of my ass)

he says no, signs with a contender for a similar amount, or less.

then what?

Pray that NJ stays healthy for more than two weeks.

Or Sign Eric Hinske, who plays 1B and hit 20 HRs in only 381 ABs last season with Tampa, to an incentive-laden 1 or 2 year deal.

[hammondsnats]

say we offer him 5 years, 80 million. (random number i pulled out of my ass)

he says no, signs with a contender for a similar amount, or less.

then what?

haha that's why i started a Plan "B" thread.

[sportsfan882]

Opportunity? How about just make the offer anyway and force him to turn it down. Had they made an offer that would be considered too good to turn down yet he still turned it down then I would absolve the Lerners but they didn't. Why did they need permission to make a great offer? Why did they need Teixeira to tell them it was OK to make another offer? Make the offer and see what happens. I believe they were worried that he would accept the offer and they really didn't want to spend the money.

Everyone here felt that to have a real shot they would have to blow everyone out of the water. They had to make a serious splash but we know they failed to do that. They offered 5 extra million over a period of 8 years. Not exactly blowing the yankees out of the water. It doesn't really matter anymore. He sign with the yankees and so freak Teixeira. But that doesn't mean that my opinion is swayed and I have to pretend that the Lerners were serious about spending money because I'm not convinced of it. That's my personal conviction and I don't give a crap who accepts it or who has an issue with it.

Dude, we could have offered Tex the world and he still wouldn't have signed here. We had no chance in Tex and Boras' mind. Playing for a winner was tops on his priority list.

[MrMadison]

Opportunity? How about just make the offer anyway and force him to turn it down. Had they made an offer that would be considered too good to turn down yet he still turned it down then I would absolve the Lerners but they didn't. Why did they need permission to make a great offer? Why did they need Teixeira to tell them it was OK to make another offer? Make the offer and see what happens. I believe they were worried that he would accept the offer and they really didn't want to spend the money.

they didn't "need Teixeira to tell them it was ok".  the Nats offer was the highest offer for weeks.  the Yankees didn't make an offer.  at the last minute, the Yankees finally made their first offer, and Teix jumped on it immediately.

he let our high offer sit for weeks, waiting for the Yankees to make their first one. it wasn't a matter of "just make the offer and see what happens". as soon as the Yankees made their first offer, Tex said "ok where do I sign." he didn't take any time to shop the Yanks offer around to try and get more money. there's nothing the Lerners could have done there.

it's not like the Yanks had an offer on the table for a while and the Lerners refused to go higher.

are you saying that with the Nats sitting high at 185, and staying high for weeks, without even a hint of the Yankees being interested...they should just randomly say "ok 200" just for the hell of it?

face it, the Yanks swooped in at the last second and made an offer, and Tex jumped for joy at it. I don't blame the Lerners for that. there is plenty of Lerner blame to go around, but not for this.

But that doesn't mean that my opinion is swayed and I have to pretend that the Lerners were serious about spending money because I'm not convinced of it. That's my personal conviction and I don't give a crap who accepts it or who has an issue with it.

whatever, keep your "personal convictions", don't care.

my only question is this.

suppose we continually put the money on the table to multiple quality free agents. I'm talking Dunn, Hudson, Bradley, Abreu, etc. and I'm talking serious competitive offers.

and they all say no, and go elsewhere.

then what?

the Lerners aren't seriously committed to spending money, because the Free Agents don't want to come here?

[MrMadison]

haha that's why i started a Plan "B" thread.

how many Plan Bs are we going to have?

[spidernat]

We don't know that because it didn't happen. They were waiting for permission. If you wait for permission before you make a move you're not going to get anywhere. Maybe that is the case. Maybe he didn't want to come here and was set on the yankees all along. So if that was the case there was no harm in making a huge offer because he wouldn't take it anyway, right? All he could do was turn a huge offer down and show his true colors.

[MrMadison]

We don't know that because it didn't happen. They were waiting for permission. If you wait for permission before you make a move you're not going to get anywhere. Maybe that is the case. Maybe he didn't want to come here and was set on the yankees all along. So if that was the case there was no harm in making a huge offer because he wouldn't take it anyway, right? All he could do was turn a huge offer down and show his true colors.

they WEREN'T waiting for permission. they were waiting for Tex to accept their offer.

once the Yankees made their offer, there was no permission to be had.

the Nats had the best offer for weeks before the Yanks even decided to get involved. how is that
"waiting for permission"?

we had the highest offer on the table. practically the entire time.  are you saying we should have raised our offer, which was the highest on the table, just because?

when you are at an Auction, and you are winning the Auction, and the Auctioneer says "going once...." do you jump up and raise your bid just because, even though you've got the highest bid already?

I said that we'd have to offer the most money to get Tex. and that's what we did. and he still said no.  I don't see how you can really fault the Lerners for that.

you can bash the lerners all you like about other crap, but I just don't blame them for the Tex thing. *shrug*

[cmdterps44]

then what?

the Lerners aren't seriously committed to spending money, because the Free Agents don't want to come here?

If your looking for a "okay i guess the Lerners tried" its hard to determine since we haven't done that. If they don't want to come here with high offers, than fine lets rely on sportsfans option.

We can't judge every free agent in the Teixeira pool. Teixeira was a one in a million player. Everyone in the free agent market was stalled because of him. Now that hes gone, why would players that had to wait for the Teixeira bidding to be over, have his attitude. If they are that good to choose to play for a winner, Dunn would have signed with the cubs, as well as everyone else, getting offers. But i have yet to see any offers from anyone. Just talks and random rumors.

Get it while its hot.

[cmdterps44]

they WEREN'T waiting for permission. they were waiting for Tex to accept their offer.

once the Yankees made their offer, there was no permission to be had.

the Nats had the best offer for weeks before the Yanks even decided to get involved. how is that "waiting for permission"?

This is going to go back and forth. If we had the highest offer on the table and were "waiting" for it to be accepted, why not just throw out a larger contract to eaze his decision making. If he hadnt accepted it then, clearly he wasn't going to later so try to bait him more with a larger sum of money. Who Knows.