Plan "B"

[Nat of the Living Dead]

As big of a douche Aaron Crow is, what separated us from getting him was a couple hundred thousand dollars.  Yeah he's a prick, but we're that stingy over that little amount of money?  Excuse me, but I thought our whole "plan" was to build our major league team through a farm system.  We didn't sign our first round pick.

And we didn't sign our first free agent target.  And btw, I'm not calling $5 million a small ration, but we knew going in, we were going to have to WOW him with an offer.  We didn't.  Now let's move on and get Dunn/Ramirez, until our "plan" works and Marrero/Burgess are ready.

Hammonds, your losing credibility with this argument. Crow wanted more than the guy before and after him. There was nothing there to say he deserved that type of money. Why you think overpaying for a guy who wasn't the hottest property on the block, who had an idiot for an agent, and later went out beer drinking and burger chomping in his free time is "worth it for the Nats" is baffling.

You know how to shut me up?  Start winning games.  Field a roster worth a damn.  Start showing real progress.

Yet again, how are they supposed to do that? With all the FAs that refuse to come here even after throwing mounds of money at them?

This is a vicious cycle that comes round again and again and again...

[Minty Fresh]

True that, but my view on this whole signing deal isn't the Dunn route, I hope its more than the Dunn route. Sign him, Sign O-Dog, Sign Sheets, Sign Lowe, crap sign more than one guy!! A starting pitcher, a hitter like Dunn, Hudsons still managable playing skill, etc etc. More than one piece is worth it. Just Dunn, i agree, would blow jerk.

I'm not saying to go overboard here, but get those guys that can help out the desperate spots (first base, second base, starting rotation, relief pitching)

So you're advocating that we just sign someone for signing's sake? 

What a poor business model.  I would much rather stand pat than sign Dunn or Hudson.  We don't need either of those guys.  We need players who will help us win games.  We have a 2B worth a shot and we have 647 outfielders already - all of whom can play 1B if Nick goes down. 

If you're advocating "just sign someone" at least make it a player worthwhile like D-Lowe or a cheapy like Sheets.  No big money for players we don't need just to pacify the "Lerners are cheap" crowd.  It doesn't make sense.

[cmdterps44]

I disagree. Winning comes first. Players are going to take slightly less money to play for a winner. They are so rich that a couple million dollars are not going to sway them to play for a loser.

I agree on the offer comparison of ours and the Yankees, but not necessarily larger offers. Why did A-Rod go to the Rangers?

[sportsfan882]

It's just a tough situation. It's not like we can just turn into a perennial winner (a la 90's Braves) overnight. People on here are clamoring for a "quick fix" just to try to be competitive for the next season or two. I don't get it. Would you rather be .500 for the next two years and then go back to crap again or do you want us to be a Contender year in and year out in a couple of years?

It just takes time. We have made progress despite whether some people want to believe it or not.

Tex fit within the plan. He was young, was a great hitter, good defender, and could help us now and in the future. He wouldn't have been a quick fix like Dunn and Hudson would be.

[hammondsnats]

And you were sticking up for our think tank who were the ones that drafted that "beer drinking and burger chomping" pick. 

How can we have a plan, when we can't even sign our top draft pick?  I don't agree with all the talking heads, but even some of them have said we were in the wrong that we couldn't get a deal done (although like I said he was a prick).  It's the fact we didn't get a deal done. 

But much like Teix, that's in the past.  Let's move forward and get something done.  I'm not of the mind to spend money just to spend it.  But right now is a damn good time to spend it.  We can't sit through another season like that.  It's not good for our fans, not good for our players, not good for anything.

I'm not losing credibility.  We agree to disagree.  I don't like the direction our club is headed in, while you feel there is no real reason to fret. 

[PatsNats28]

It's just a tough situation. It's not like we can just turn into a perennial winner (a la 90's Braves) overnight. People on here are clamoring for a "quick fix" just to try to be competitive for the next season or two. I don't get it. Would you rather be .500 for the next two years and then go back to crap again or do you want us to be a Contender year in and year out in a couple of years?

It just takes time. We have made progress despite whether some people want to believe it or not.

Tex fit within the plan. He was young, was a great hitter, good defender, and could help us now and in the future. He wouldn't have been a quick fix like Dunn and Hudson would be.

That actually sums up my feelings kinda well at this point. But the fans will be outraged if we do nothing... you have to think of it from a PR perspective as well.

[sportsfan882]

It all boils down to our young players (Zim, Dukes, Flores, Balester, etc.) producing. That would not only create more wins but it would also allow us to become a nice target for FAs as early as next offseason.

2009 is a huge year for the Washington Nationals organization from top to bottom. Significant progress MUST be made.

[Minty Fresh]

That actually sums up my feelings kinda well at this point. But the fans will be outraged if we do nothing... you have to think of it from a PR perspective as well.

So we just chuck 15 MM to a bum like Dunn for good PR?

[cmdterps44]

So you're advocating that we just sign someone for signing's sake? 

What a poor business model.  I would much rather stand pat than sign Dunn or Hudson.  We don't need either of those guys.  We need players who will help us win games.  We have a 2B worth a shot and we have 647 outfielders already - all of whom can play 1B if Nick goes down. 

If you're advocating "just sign someone" at least make it a player worthwhile like D-Lowe or a cheapy like Sheets.  No big money for players we don't need just to pacify the "Lerners are cheap" crowd.  It doesn't make sense.

No I don't mean sign them for no reason. I would rather have Dunn and his "could be power" with his 40 homers ( stat) in our Cleanup with Hudson leading off and his defense than a potential Anderson Hernandez starting at second.

Plus I'm saying also acquiring a one of the two pitchers you listed would also increase the pitching while those two can increase our offense.

I'm all for signing Dunn, but my first choice would be trading, Why can't we just go out and try to call the Padres for Gonzalez or Brewers for Fielder? I'd love to have them two over Dunn easily, but still Dunn is a better option than we have right now.

We can't tell if NJ will go down, but in past years we've seen it, and we can't just go in thinking "Oh he won't go down that was a fluke"... I just don't want the same mistake to happen.

[ronnynat]

The Dunn lovers can point out only his homers as his main attribute.

I'm actually a bigger fan of his OPS than his homers. The homers just make him a threat that we haven't had since Soriano.

[Minty Fresh]

I'm all for signing Dunn, but my first choice would be trading, Why can't we just go out and try to call the Padres for Gonzalez or Brewers for Fielder? I'd love to have them two over Dunn easily, but still Dunn is a better option than we have right now.

We can't tell if NJ will go down, but in past years we've seen it, and we can't just go in thinking "Oh he won't go down that was a fluke"... I just don't want the same mistake to happen.

But therein lies the rub.  If we sign Dunn for four years we are crippling our chances at competing when Dunn sucks.  Why not hang onto it and wait for a free agent much more worthy of a big contract. 

Same with Hudson.

[Minty Fresh]

I'm actually a bigger fan of his OPS than his homers. The homers just make him a threat that we haven't had since Soriano.

But his OPS still doesn't hold water compared to Manny's.

[ronnynat]

But his OPS still doesn't hold water compared to Manny's.

No, it doesn't. I'd much rather have Manny. He'll still be better than Dunn 3 years from now. I just don't think Manny wants to come here. We actually have a chance to get Dunn.

[cmdterps44]

It's just a tough situation. It's not like we can just turn into a perennial winner (a la 90's Braves) overnight. People on here are clamoring for a "quick fix" just to try to be competitive for the next season or two. I don't get it. Would you rather be .500 for the next two years and then go back to crap again or do you want us to be a Contender year in and year out in a couple of years?

It just takes time. We have made progress despite whether some people want to believe it or not.

Tex fit within the plan. He was young, was a great hitter, good defender, and could help us now and in the future. He wouldn't have been a quick fix like Dunn and Hudson would be.

I'm not saying it will be an immediate win, but with those pieces there, it can obviously help out the next few years while we wait for our potential ball players in the minors.

Tex would've been perfect for the plan, I agree its up to our young players, to stay healthy and produce more and all of that, its just players whos stats have proved they can be well in this lineup as well as helping out the youngsters progress is something id like to see here.

My main fear is just going into the season with Nick Johnson at first. I want to prevent that injury risk at first as much as possible.

[sportsfan882]

No, it doesn't. I'd much rather have Manny. He'll still be better than Dunn 3 years from now. I just don't think Manny wants to come here. We actually have a chance to get Dunn.

Yep because Dunn is a big fat loser and wouldn't mind playing for another losing team. He would fit right in here perfectly.

Legit players like Manny are too good to play for the Nats.

[Minty Fresh]

No, it doesn't. I'd much rather have Manny. He'll still be better than Dunn 3 years from now. I just don't think Manny wants to come here. We actually have a chance to get Dunn.

His OPS is driven by his homers.  Those OPS numbers were generated largely in a small ballpark (Cincy).  Roughly 1/3 of his hits are homers.  He ends up with more K's than hits every single year.

I want Manny too, I just don't want Dunn under any circumstances.

[cmdterps44]

Yep because Dunn is a big fat loser and wouldn't mind playing for another losing team. He would fit right in here perfectly.

Legit players like Manny are too good to play for the Nats.

at Dunn

Well I wouldn't really group up players with Manny.

I think Manny is Manny in general and should be in his own position group. Some players maybe wouldn't want to play for us, but I can see Manny just not trying at all.

[hammondsnats]

haha there's 8 arguments going on right now.  we all agree that we want this team to get better, we have our various opinions of how we can get better. 

all i'm saying is dunn and ramirez aren't going to be here in 3/4 years from now.  but they can help us win some games now, not rush our prospects, put some fans in the seats, set an example for other marquee FA's that DC isn't so bad and give us some optimism. 

it's not like we don't have the money and hell we don't have a cap

[Nat of the Living Dead]

And you were sticking up for our think tank who were the ones that drafted that "beer drinking and burger chomping" pick.

The beer/burger incident happened after the fact and showed this kid wasn't ready for a pro career and he might never be. It also gives leverage to the viewpoint this kid was a freak-up and truly him and his reps completely misplayed their cards. It isn't like he is projected to go any higher or lower in the next draft currently and it's not like he is going to be picked up by a winner. He dropped the ball.

How can we have a plan, when we can't even sign our top draft pick?  I don't agree with all the talking heads, but even some of them have said we were in the wrong that we couldn't get a deal done (although like I said he was a prick).  It's the fact we didn't get a deal done.

This sounds like the "sign someone just to sign someone" mentality Minty was talking about earlier.

But much like Teix, that's in the past.  Let's move forward

Yes please.

But right now is a damn good time to spend it.  We can't sit through another season like that.  It's not good for our fans, not good for our players, not good for anything.

Spend it on what? Short term, flawed, players? This definitely sounds like the "spend to spend" mentality.
 

I don't like the direction our club is headed in

That is fine, but you're going for the ride no matter how paranoid you are.

while you feel there is no real reason to fret.

Yet. There will be a time where even I will say, "Okay, enough is enough", but I don't think we are at that point yet. Hell, the off season isn't even over.

[ronnynat]

Yep because Dunn is a big fat loser and wouldn't mind playing for another losing team. He would fit right in here perfectly.

Legit players like Manny are too good to play for the Nats.

I don't think that's exactly what it is. Manny's played for good-great teams for a while now and he's nearing the end of his career. It makes sense for him to go to a contender. Dunn will only get a 3-4 year deal, so choosing to go to a team like the Nats isn't as much of a risk. If he's successful here, he'll make more money and he can choose to go to a contender after his contract is up.

[Nat of the Living Dead]

I'm sorry, but I've never desperately searched Stubhub, splurged on great seats, and rushed to a stadium to see Adam Dunn play.

[Minty Fresh]

I'm sorry, but I've never desperately searched Stubhub, splurged on great seats, and rushed to a stadium to see Adam Dunn play.

Hopefully you'll never have to. 

[hammondsnats]

NOTLD, we're the biggest joke in MLB.  What makes you think we'll be ANY better next season?  It's not really directed at you, I'm asking anyone.  What makes anything think we'll be better next year with the same AAAA/injury prone guys we have?  And why are you so against spending money to get better?  You don't want a 40 HR/solid OBP in our line-up?  You don't want a guy who has batted .320+/35HR the past few years?  Just curious. 

[sportsfan882]

I don't think that's exactly what it is. Manny's played for good-great teams for a while now and he's nearing the end of his career. It makes sense for him to go to a contender. Dunn will only get a 3-4 year deal, so choosing to go to a team like the Nats isn't as much of a risk. If he's successful here, he'll make more money and he can choose to go to a contender after his contract is up.

I just think it's gotta be hard for players like Lowe and Manny who have always played on winning teams to go to losing teams. They wouldn't and couldn't do it.

Dunn's been a loser for his entire career so going to yet another losing ball club would not bother him.

[ronnynat]

His OPS is driven by his homers.  Those OPS numbers were generated largely in a small ballpark (Cincy).  Roughly 1/3 of his hits are homers.  He ends up with more K's than hits every single year.

He walks a lot, too, which would really help us. Dukes and Zimmerman didn't get very many opportunities w/ guys on base last season. Dunn would force pitchers to give our #3 hitter more pitches to hit, and he'd give our #5 hitter more opportunities w/ runners on base. Along w/ the other reasons we've already talked about, that's why it'd be worth it to me to sign him.