PB69 presents "Fire Dave Martinez" (2018)

[Greg_SRT]

No matter how professional athletes are, they all benefit from good leadership. I don't care what field you are in, good leadership enhances performance of the team as a whole. Some individuals are self motivated, true, but others would benefit from external motivation.

And, yeah, I do think your post was a bit over the top and kind of got personal.

I did not say they didn’t need good leadership.

I said they aren’t out there not caring about their performance because of their lack of respect for Dave.

If leadership didn’t matter then they wouldn’t need a manager or coaches at all.

If the post does come off that personal, then I apologize.

But regardless, they aren’t children out there. Stop treating them like that. They hold themselves to higher standards then that.

Stop treating this roster as Little Leaguers.

[Baseball is Life]

I did not say they didn’t need good leadership.

I said they aren’t out there not caring about their performance because of their lack of respect for Dave.

If leadership didn’t matter then they wouldn’t need a manager or coaches at all.

If the post does come off that personal, then I apologize.

But regardless, they aren’t children out there. Stop treating them like that. They hold themselves to higher standards then that.

Stop treating this roster as Little Leaguers.

You contradict yourself. You say they need leadership but they are adults that don't need leadership. I'm confused.

[Ray D]

Why keep Turner? He’s one of the few pieces on this team that could return a solid haul. He’s definitely not indispensable. I can live with Difo at SS.

When you go into sell mode (which I don't advocate) you trade off players that you're going to lose anyway, to free agent.  Or, if you're a team that doesn't have any hope of competing for several years then you consider trading guys who won't be around then.  Turner is not gone after this year, and the Nats, no matter what happens this season, expect to compete next year.  Trading Turner would be a dumb move.

[LoveAngelos]

The answer  to tha question might be ....from the first day of spring training

[Greg_SRT]

You contradict yourself. You say they need leadership but they are adults that don't need leadership. I'm confused.

No.

I said they are able to as professionals hold themselves accountable. That they don’t go out there with low effort because of a manager.

They are not clueless and don’t no where to stand unless a manager tells them where to be.

Max doesn’t need Dave to tell him to pitch well. Max doesn’t need Dave to tell him whether he did well in his outing.

They are self starters and self diagnosing their own problems. Coaches guide and teach. It’s not 100% on either when things fail.

Little leaguers need coaches to tell them what exactly to do.

[welch]

The camel thing seems to have been a gimmick. The "reset" yesterday, with each player having "Nationals" on the back of their tee-shirt, seems like another gimmick. This team seemed un-focused in April and lousy in June and July. No other way to see it: a .500 team, third best in the NL East, facing better teams in Philadelphia and Atlanta.

Rehire Dusty for a push in 2019?

[Baseball is Life]

No.

I said they are able to as professionals hold themselves accountable. That they don’t go out there with low effort because of a manager.

They are not clueless and don’t no where to stand unless a manager tells them where to be.

Max doesn’t need Dave to tell him to pitch well. Max doesn’t need Dave to tell him whether he did well in his outing.

They are self starters and self diagnosing their own problems. Coaches guide and teach. It’s not 100% on either when things fail.

Little leaguers need coaches to tell them what exactly to do.

You are right in that managers at the MLB level don't need to work on fundamentals as much. And getting away from the fact that the MLB manager's job is more about strategy, they also motivate players. "They don’t go out there with low effort because of a manager" but they can get extra motivation from a manager who instills the right environment (tight vs. relaxed, etc.) and works with individuals on their proper mindset.

[Baseball is Life]

The camel thing seems to have been a gimmick. The "reset" yesterday, with each player having "Nationals" on the back of their tee-shirt, seems like another gimmick. This team seemed un-focused in April and lousy in June and July. No other way to see it: a .500 team, third best in the NL East, facing better teams in Philadelphia and Atlanta.

Rehire Dusty for a push in 2019?

Yeah, I'm not a fan of the gimmicks. They are ridiculed in the business world and I suspect the same thing in sports.

[Greg_SRT]

You are right in that coaches at the MLB level don't need to work on fundamentals as much. And getting away from the fact that the MLB manager's job is more about strategy, they also motivate players. "They don’t go out there with low effort because of a manager" but they can get extra motivation from a manager who instills the right environment (tight vs. relaxed, etc.) and works with individuals on their proper mindset.

I agree with you. Not arguing that.

But they aren’t out there not caring because they don’t respect Dave. That’s my argument.

[Baseball is Life]

I agree with you. Not arguing that.

But they aren’t out there not caring because they don’t respect Dave. That’s my argument.

If they are professionals who are self-motivated, why are they out there not caring?

[Greg_SRT]

If they are professionals who are self-motivated, why are they out there not caring?

They do care. If you think they don’t then you are mistaken.

[Ray D]

You are right in that managers at the MLB level don't need to work on fundamentals as much.

They don't need to TEACH fundamentals.  WORKING ON fundamentals is different and I think it's more important for MLB players than lower level.  Infielders should be taking ground balls every day; outfielders, fly balls; throwing to bases, hitting the cutoff, etc.  They should do these things regularly in order to stay sharp.  I don't think they are doing this under Martinez.

[tomterp]

No.

I said they are able to as professionals hold themselves accountable. That they don’t go out there with low effort because of a manager.

They are not clueless and don’t no where to stand unless a manager tells them where to be.

Max doesn’t need Dave to tell him to pitch well. Max doesn’t need Dave to tell him whether he did well in his outing.

They are self starters and self diagnosing their own problems. Coaches guide and teach. It’s not 100% on either when things fail.

Little leaguers need coaches to tell them what exactly to do.

I don't really buy the argument that anyone rises to such a level of professionalism that they can presume to be self motivating.    If mental errors are made repeatedly (Strasburg failing to hold runners last night is an obvious example) then obviously self-discipline has failed.

Employees in all fields, at all levels, are subject to corrective action when they fail.  The CEO answers to the board.  Players answer to the manager.  Motivation, and corrective feedback, are the tools the bosses employ.  Todd's example drawn from high school experience is obviously based on inexperienced, immature young men who may need more of both tools, but none of us (mindfact?) ever reach that special place where feedback doesn't matter.

[mitlen]

...    but none of us (mindfact?) ever reach that special place where feedback doesn't matter.

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[Baseball is Life]

They do care. If you think they don’t then you are mistaken.

Of course they care. I'm not one of those people who ascribes to the rich athlete just collecting the paycheck mindset. I think anyone who rises to that level and plays in front of thousands of people every day needs to care or they would fail miserably.

[Baseball is Life]

They don't need to TEACH fundamentals.  WORKING ON fundamentals is different and I think it's more important for MLB players than lower level.  Infielders should be taking ground balls every day; outfielders, fly balls; throwing to bases, hitting the cutoff, etc.  They should do these things regularly in order to stay sharp.  I don't think they are doing this under Martinez.

You have a good point but working and teaching go together, right? You are teaching at the same time. Not as much at the MLB level, sure, but it does go on. And I don't know if they are or are not doing this under Davey.

[Greg_SRT]

I don't really buy the argument that anyone rises to such a level of professionalism that they can presume to be self motivating.    If mental errors are made repeatedly (Strasburg failing to hold runners last night is an obvious example) then obviously self-discipline has failed.

Employees in all fields, at all levels, are subject to corrective action when they fail.  The CEO answers to the board.  Players answer to the manager.  Motivation, and corrective feedback, are the tools the bosses employ.  Todd's example drawn from high school experience is obviously based on inexperienced, immature young men who may need more of both tools, but none of us (mindfact?) ever reach that special place where feedback doesn't matter.

Not arguing that they don't need coaches. In fact I said if they didn't need them they wouldn't have them. They do need them.

Not arguing that they don't need leadership.

I am arguing that this team isn't going out there and not trying or don't care because they don't respect Dave.

I don't care if your background is a former HS baseball player or the CEO of Ford. You will not convince me that they are out there not caring because of their non respect of Dave. I'm gonna need that from the horses mouth.

I don't understand how we can talk out one side of are mouth and act as if guys don't try because Dave, and then act as if they are selfish and only care about there stats. That doesn't add up.

[Baseball is Life]

Not arguing that they don't need leadership.

I am arguing that this team isn't going out there and not trying or don't care because they don't respect Dave.

Your use of double negatives is confusing. The second one might be a double, double negative. I have no idea what you're trying to say.

[Greg_SRT]

Your use of double negatives is confusing. The second one might be a double, double negative. I have no idea what you're trying to say.

There is zero chance that the reason our Nationals are under .500 is not respecting Dave.

They are out there trying to win games and perform regardless for their respect level on Dave.

Better?

[Baseball is Life]

There is zero chance that the reason our Nationals are under .500 is not respecting Dave.

They are out there trying to win games and perform regardless for their respect level on Dave.

Better?

Oh, ok. I agree. But it's not about respect. It's about motivation. Is he motivating them and providing the kind of environment for success? I don't know but that's a valid question. I know you think it's about self-motivation at that level, but I think some players need more.

[tomterp]

There is zero chance that the reason our Nationals are under .500 is not respecting Dave.

They are out there trying to win games and perform regardless for their respect level on Dave.

Better?

Much better!  Nice corrective feedback from Bil.     

[spidernat]

WTF does your HS Baseball days have to do with this?

Do you honestly think you, as a child not respecting someone or caring about your poor performance is similar to the Washington Nationals? The Roster of professional athletes?

Members of the clubhouse give a crap. Even if Dave isn't respected, they are still held accountable by themselves and teammates. Because they are professionals.

You have a classic fan attitude and your previous experience of being a bratty HS Baseball player isn't allowing you an insider viewpoints.

When guys step into the batters box, on the field, or on the mound, they aren't thinking I'd care if we had a better manager. They aren't thinking who gives a crap when they cause an error or strikeout.

That's the attitude of minimum wage workers who have history of being unreliable. Not you average professional athlete.

If you didn't care that you were letting your team down because you couldn't respect your coach, then mistakes were made raising you as a child. Hopefully you don't have that same attitude now in your adult professional life.

If you do then that's your issue. But the players in that clubhouse hold themselves to much higher standards than that.

[JCA-CrystalCity]

As stated before, the key to the offense is Turner.  If he were the every-day leadoff hitter he would energize the offense, steal 100+ bases, score 120 to 140 runs and distract opposing pitchers to the advantage of hitters following him.  The every-day lineup should have Turner batting first, Easton or Soto second, Rendon third, the catcher eighth and the pitcher ninth.  Harper, Murphy, Adams/Reynolds and Taylor are the obvious 4th through 7th hitters. 

So are you saying play one or the other, Soto or Eaton?  You give both Harper and Taylor slots in the batting order.  If they aren't playing 4 OFs, then one of Soto, Eaton, Harper, and Taylor has to sit.  Are you also saying Zimmerman to the bench?  Maybe that's the right call at this point, but I'm going to guess a Zimmerman going right is probably a better option than even a Reynolds going right. 

I honestly think that, at this point, the line up doesn't work and they need to sell an asset or two, but that's not a Davey issue, that's a Rizzo / Lerner issue.

[GburgNatsFan]

 

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[Ray D]

You have a good point but working and teaching go together, right?

I'm thinking for example of Cal Ripkin who took (or claimed to take) 100 grounders at short every day, pre-game.  It was a low-level coach hitting the grounders, nobody was teaching him anything.  By taking those grounders every game it increased the chance that he would successfully field grounders during the game.  100 grounders may be extreme.  But I know from personal experience that taking infield before a game (doesn't have to be immediately before, could be earlier in the day) makes you considerably sharper in the game.  Most of this drilling is done in private (before fans are admitted) so we know little about who does it and how much.  But I am suspecting that this team doesn't do all that much. Why? No concrete reason other than Dave is trying to be Mr. Nice Guy.  I don't know how much drilling Dusty had the team do, but I suspect more than Dave.