PB69 presents "Fire Dave Martinez" (2018)

[Greg_SRT]

I was kinda joking. But he has been very pro-player until the knoves came out for Dave, then he become pro Dave

But what do I know..

I am very much pro this team.

I've said all season IDK what Dave will be in terms of Manager Career. Just that I don't think he is much of the reason we are 54-53.

I have said before that missing production from Harper, Zimm, and Murph is huge.

Injuries have been a part of the reason for struggles.

But my belief is we will turn it around. I don't think it's likely that Tanner, Harper, Zimm, Murphy, and Trea will all have down years.

[HalfSmokes]

It’s unclear to me why we think that someone who isn’t winning in the regular season is somehow going to magically gain managerial savvy in the playoffs.

management firing Dusty for not advancing in the playoffs isn't a bad decision because davey flopped this year. There was always going to be a gamble, last years showing convinced them that they need to take it. I still think it was the right move, even if the subsequent choice of a replacement ended up being a mistake

[Ray D]

To put accountability on players?

Who's responsible for putting the accountability on the players?  Accountability has to be enforced, who enforces it?  If not the manager then who?

[HalfSmokes]

Who's responsible for putting the accountability on the players?  Accountability has to be enforced, who enforces it?  If not the manager then who?

The guy who assembles the team and decides who remains on the team

[Greg_SRT]

Who's responsible for putting the accountability on the players?  Accountability has to be enforced, who enforces it?  If not the manager then who?

What makes you think that hasn't happened?

How do you know coaches haven't discussed and diagnosed issues with bad AB's with RISP with players for example.

It's not all you went 0 for 5, you are on the bench. The lineup each game is based on many factors.

Before and after the game, guys are hitting the batting cages, watching video, taking and absorbing advice.

What makes people think there has been zero accountability for performance.

[nfotiu]

What makes you think that hasn't happened?

How do you know coaches haven't discussed and diagnosed issues with bad AB's with RISP with players for example.

It's not all you went 0 for 5, you are on the bench. The lineup each game is based on many factors.

Before and after the game, guys are hitting the batting cages, watching video, taking and absorbing advice.

What makes people think there has been zero accountability for performance.

Well, how do we know the manager and coaches are giving bad advice that's not helping or is making them worse? 

[Greg_SRT]

Well, how do we know the manager and coaches are giving bad advice that's not helping or is making them worse?

We don't. We don't know either way.

We don't know if players care or not either.

Not 100% certainty anyway.

Some things in life you give the benefit of the doubt based on someone word of previous experience for example.

As in the past season say we have good hitters, fielders, and pitchers. The players have been professional in the past seasons. Former and current players speak highly of coaches and front office.

Theres more to say coaches and players are trying and working hard then there is to say they aren't.

[dcpatti]

FWIW The Nats offense has been cratering since halfway through last season. 
2017 games 1-81: 441 runs scored, for an average of 5.44 per game.
2017 games 82-162: 371 runs scored, for an average of 4.58.
In 2017 we scored more than 10 runs a total of 21 times, but only 6 of those times were in the second half.
We were also shut out 7 times, and every one of them were in the second half.

As of Monday night (so, before the beat-down against the Mets) we'd scored 460 runs in 106 games, or an average of 4.34 runs per game. Still down from the second half of last year, but not down by all that much.   We'd also been shut out 10 times in 106 games, which is pretty brutal, but also not all that far off of the second half of last year.  10/106 = shut out once every 10.6 games. Last year's shutout  rate was one shutout every 9.33 games if you count from Game 87 when we had our first one, and if you're counting from the halfway point, that's one shutout every 8.5 games.

Either way, the Meh offense has been a thing for a while, not just this season. Or maybe the first half of 2017 was over-performance and the second half was just the true level of talent on this team. The team has been getting by on its pitching for a while, and once the pitching fails, they can't get by.

Not sure what this means in the context of Davey Martinez but I like math.

[skippy1999]

management firing Dusty for not advancing in the playoffs isn't a bad decision because davey flopped this year. There was always going to be a gamble, last years showing convinced them that they need to take it. I still think it was the right move, even if the subsequent choice of a replacement ended up being a mistake

agree completely with this.

[nfotiu]

management firing Dusty for not advancing in the playoffs isn't a bad decision because davey flopped this year. There was always going to be a gamble, last years showing convinced them that they need to take it. I still think it was the right move, even if the subsequent choice of a replacement ended up being a mistake

Taking regular season for granted and making a decision based on a 5 game sample or 2 - 5 game samples is a bad decision making process in my books.

[Ray D]

The guy who assembles the team and decides who remains on the team

I think of "holding accountable" as a more  hands-on thing.  If a guy doesn't run out a ground ball, who talks to him about it? The manager, not the GM.  Ultimate accountability - who stays and who goes - sure that's the GM. But I'm looking at the basic level.

[HalfSmokes]

Taking regular season for granted and making a decision based on a 5 game sample or 2 - 5 game samples is a bad decision making process in my books.

since 2012 the team has been supposedly in it's window and unable to crack the first round. Coming into this year, they were looking at their MVP outfielder being gone the following year and one of their two aces the year after. They'd seen Dusty in the playoffs and decided to give someone else a shot while this team was still intact

[HalfSmokes]

I think of "holding accountable" as a more  hands-on thing.  If a guy doesn't run out a ground ball, who talks to him about it? The manager, not the GM.  Ultimate accountability - who stays and who goes - sure that's the GM. But I'm looking at the basic level.

the same core has fallen short year after year regardless of manager- that's the GM

[Greg_SRT]

I think of "holding accountable" as a more  hands-on thing.  If a guy doesn't run out a ground ball, who talks to him about it? The manager, not the GM.  Ultimate accountability - who stays and who goes - sure that's the GM. But I'm looking at the basic level.

If you already know the answer, why ask the question?

[varoadking]

If you already know the answer, why ask the question?

Right...let's just shut down the Forum then... 

[Ray D]

If you already know the answer, why ask the question?

You don't really add much to the discussion do you.

[nfotiu]

I think of "holding accountable" as a more  hands-on thing.  If a guy doesn't run out a ground ball, who talks to him about it? The manager, not the GM.  Ultimate accountability - who stays and who goes - sure that's the GM. But I'm looking at the basic level.

We put a lot of emphasis on running out easy plays to first.  If Harper hits like he does in 2015, he can crab walk to first base as far as I'm concerned.  I'm not sure that there is any correlation to jogging to first and playing well where it counts.  Usually the jogging is more of a symptom of pouting or frustration about things not going well at the plate vs not trying.  The pouting or frustration is what needs to be addressed as it is probably negatively affecting performance.  Benching a guy until he runs hard to first isn't really addressing the root cause.

[bluestreak]

management firing Dusty for not advancing in the playoffs isn't a bad decision because davey flopped this year. There was always going to be a gamble, last years showing convinced them that they need to take it. I still think it was the right move, even if the subsequent choice of a replacement ended up being a mistake

The Nats didn't advance in the playoffs because they didn't get timely hitting. I am going to list the Batting Averages of the Regular Starters in the 5 game series

.143
.167
.211
.150
.211
.176
.143
.333


That is awful. The team couldn't hit. That's why they lost. Any other reasons are very secondary to that fact.   

This year the team isn't hitting. And that's why they are losing.


I don't know whether letting Dusty go was the right move. I lean no, but people here that I respect and are smarter than me have made convincing arguments the other way and I can see it from their perspective.

I also don't know if Martinez will be a bad mannager. He seems completely out of his depth right now, but maybe he will grow into it. It's not great that Rizzo had to go in and clean up his clubhouse mess, but maybe he learns from that and gets better.

But what I do push back at is the inconsistency here. The Nats lost in the playoffs because they couldn't hit, pure and simple. If you want to blame that on Dusty, fine. It's a manager's job to get his players to perform.

But the Nats are losing now because they aren't hitting. It seems silly to now give the manager a pass and say now it's mostly because the players aren't performing.   

[Count Walewski]

Did any incidents like players choking each other, players leaking unflattering information about the team, or players being selectively punished for the same offense happen during the Dusty era? I don't know if I'm selectively remembering a golden age of this kinda stuff either not happening or not being publicly surfaced, or if Dusty, for all his faults as a strategist, was actually good at the managing the personalities/clubhouse part of running a team.

[nfotiu]

the same core has fallen short year after year regardless of manager- that's the GM

A lot of things have to go right to go deep into the playoffs.   The most important and most controllable is making the playoffs.  I think it is natural to see patterns in 5 high leverage games that aren't real.  If Werth doesn't lose that ball in the lights, then we probably win and Werth is remembered for going 2 for 4 that night and working the pitcher for a couple hard earned walks, and Dusty is looking good.  If not for all the weirdness in that 5th inning, we win too.   If that one pitch of Storen's in 2012 was a strike, we win that game and everything changes.  If Max was fully healthy last year, we probably win in 4 and Dusty is a good playoff manager...

[bluestreak]

A lot of things have to go right to go deep into the playoffs.   The most important and most controllable is making the playoffs.  I think it is natural to see patterns in 5 high leverage games that aren't real.  If Werth doesn't lose that ball in the lights, then we probably win and Werth is remembered for going 2 for 4 that night and working the pitcher for a couple hard earned walks, and Dusty is looking good.  If not for all the weirdness in that 5th inning, we win too.   If that one pitch of Storen's in 2012 was a strike, we win that game and everything changes.  If Max was fully healthy last year, we probably win in 4 and Dusty is a good playoff manager...

All of this. The playoffs are weird. The way you win is to maximize your chances. Basing major decisions on small sample sizes and ignoring bigger sample sizes usually comes back to bite you in the ass.

[HalfSmokes]

The Nats didn't advance in the playoffs because they didn't get timely hitting. I am going to list the Batting Averages of the Regular Starters in the 5 game series

.143
.167
.211
.150
.211
.176
.143
.333


That is awful. The team couldn't hit. That's why they lost. Any other reasons are very secondary to that fact.   

This year the team isn't hitting. And that's why they are losing.


I don't know whether letting Dusty go was the right move. I lean no, but people here that I respect and are smarter than me have made convincing arguments the other way and I can see it from their perspective.

I also don't know if Martinez will be a bad mannager. He seems completely out of his depth right now, but maybe he will grow into it. It's not great that Rizzo had to go in and clean up his clubhouse mess, but maybe he learns from that and gets better.

But what I do push back at is the inconsistency here. The Nats lost in the playoffs because they couldn't hit, pure and simple. If you want to blame that on Dusty, fine. It's a manager's job to get his players to perform.

But the Nats are losing now because they aren't hitting. It seems silly to now give the manager a pass and say now it's mostly because the players aren't performing.   

and why was werth starting in the playoffs?

[Greg_SRT]

You don't really add much to the discussion do you.

What are you adding? Also did you will a team from behind 9-0? 

You ask a question and word it so it's obvious the answer you are looking for. Someone says not the answer you are looking for. And you try to guide it to the answer you want.

Boring and low energy. Just make the statement you want to.

[bluestreak]

and why was werth starting in the playoffs?

I have no idea. Maybe Rizzo told him to. Maybe he was worried about the chemistry in the clubhouse (which he seemed to have a decent handle on). Maybe he decided that Werth would revert to his mean. But no one on the team that wasn't named Michael Taylor hit for crap. And Werth went 2-4 in game 5.

If the team hits even close to how they did in the regular season they win that series. They didn't and lost. Seems silly to blame it all on the manager.

[Slateman]

and why was werth starting in the playoffs?

Thanks Obama