PB69 presents "Fire Dave Martinez" (2018)

[Natsinpwc]

Except in this case, it was immediately clear that Martinez was unable to express a coherent thought.

Neither did Casey Stengel.

He is inarticulate for sure.  That could mean he is dumb.  Or that he just has a problem articulating his thoughts.  It's hard to say what the Nats saw in him because we were not in the interviews.  As others have noted, we have a poor track record with managers--the Lerners seem to think it does not make sense to spend on a manager.  As long as that holds, we don't have hope for much better. 

[Greg_SRT]

Neither did Casey Stengel.

He is inarticulate for sure.  That could mean he is dumb.  Or that he just has a problem articulating his thoughts.  It's hard to say what the Nats saw in him because we were not in the interviews.  As others have noted, we have a poor track record with managers--the Lerners seem to think it does not make sense to spend on a manager.  As long as that holds, we don't have hope for much better.

What does WNFF think managers make? What do they think market value is?

Weiters makes more than any manager in baseball.

[mitlen]

Whether we're stuck with him for the full three years or not, one fact remains: Martinez is soooooooooooo inarticulate. He reminds me of someone who passed out at a table in a pub after a lengthy drinking session, who is then awakened suddenly by someone passing by and who immediately starts groping for words, any words, however incoherent the resulting utterance may be. His post-match pressers are practically unlistenable.

[LoveAngelos]

I read Martinez was interviewed  when the Big Marine was hired but the Nats passed on Martinez because he appeared insecure of his abilities.
A leopard can't change the colors of his spots.....not in a few years.......then again the Big Marine was very secure in his skin.......just an idiot which means, ipsit dixit, idiocy runs in all varieties of personality

[Natsinpwc]

What does WNFF think managers make? What do they think market value is?

Weiters makes more than any manager in baseball.

I know that the top ones make more than the Lerners want to pay.

[Natsinpwc]

I read Martinez was interviewed  when the Big Marine was hired but the Nats passed on Martinez because he appeared insecure of his abilities.
A leopard can't change the colors of his spots.....not in a few years.......then again the Big Marine was very secure in his skin.......just an idiot which means, ipsit dixit, idiocy runs in all varieties of personality

People said some of the same things about Terry Francona when he managed the Phillies.

I think they will stick with him to start next year. Rizzo is stubborn. Injuries did happen this year and Harper don't think you can blame on the manager.

[Greg_SRT]

I know that the top ones make more than the Lerners want to pay.

Perhaps.

I think Dusty should have got an extension, but what he was paid was fair. And what Dave is getting is more than fair.

[nfotiu]

People said some of the same things about Terry Francona when he managed the Phillies.

I think they will stick with him to start next year. Rizzo is stubborn. Injuries did happen this year and Harper don't think you can blame on the manager.

My take is that he does deserve a lot of blame for Harper.  Harper's always had great success by being a patient hitter who was satisfied with taking what the game gave him, and I think he learned that approach from Dusty and Werth.  He played the first month of the season like that, and Martinez expressed that he was taking too many walks, tried to change it by getting him to expand the strike zone, and even batting him lead off.  The approach in the past was to get a reliable bat behind him that would make the teams pay for those walks and start giving Harper pitches to hit.  Instead he's move him all over the order, had different guys hitting behind him and pitchers have thrown him even less strikes and now he's pressing even more.

Dusty and others in the past have also always seemed to be able to sense when Harper is pressing too hard, and got him to back off when needed.  I don't get the sense that Dave has done that successfully at all.   

[HalfSmokes]

My take is that he does deserve a lot of blame for Harper.  Harper's always had great success by being a patient hitter who was satisfied with taking what the game gave him, and I think he learned that approach from Dusty and Werth. 

his best year was the year before Dusty got here - he had an enormous fall off when Dusty go here

[welch]

I think Rizzo is saying: "We gave dave the players to win. Dusty had the same players and won the division twice. You have two months to show us that you can win, dave."

[MarquisDeSade]

I think Rizzo is saying: "We gave dave the players to win. Dusty had the same players and won the division twice. You have two months to show us that you can win, dave."

Doesn't DMart have a five year contract?  How many managers do the Lerners plan on paying not to manage over the next five years?

[DCFan]

Doesn't DMart have a five year contract?  How many managers do the Lerners plan on paying not to manage over the next five years?

I think it's 3.

[varoadking]

I think it's 3.

3 at $900K per, and a team option for a 4th at, I think, $1.3MM

[Slateman]

I think Rizzo is saying: "We gave dave the players to win. Dusty had the same players and won the division twice. You have two months to show us that you can win, dave."

So what does it take for Dave to keep his job with a finally healthy team? Let's say that Harper stops being a crapbird and the Nats make a go of it. Let's say they miss the division by a game. Is that enough for Dave to keep his job?

[bluestreak]

Perhaps.

I think Dusty should have got an extension, but what he was paid was fair. And what Dave is getting is more than fair.

What’s fair? What we arbitrarily determine “should be enough” money?

I define it as what the market establishes. And the Nats don’t pay anywhere near market for a manager of a high payroll, perennially contending team.

And if you pay below market you get an inferior product.

[Greg_SRT]

There’s less than 5 managers making above 3 million a year. That I am aware of anyway.

[HalfSmokes]

What’s fair? What we arbitrarily determine “should be enough” money?

I define it as what the market establishes. And the Nats don’t pay anywhere near market for a manager of a high payroll, perennially contending team.

And if you pay below market you get an inferior product.

dusty was one of the better paid managers while he was here- he reportedly had a $4 million dollar deal ($2 million per) which would have put him just outside of the top tier

[Ray D]

So what does it take for Dave to keep his job with a finally healthy team? Let's say that Harper stops being a crapbird and the Nats make a go of it. Let's say they miss the division by a game. Is that enough for Dave to keep his job?

Hell no. Making the playoffs isn't even enough.  He has to win a playoff series.  Isn't that why Dusty was fired?

[Slateman]

Hell no. Making the playoffs isn't even enough.  He has to win a playoff series.  Isn't that why Dusty was fired?

True. But Dusty had a much healthier team and no one to compete against in the division.

Honestly, if this team could magically finish a game out from this point, you'd have to point to Davey as the reason why. And I'd gladly welcome him back, without Harper here to screw with the clubhouse.

[bluestreak]

Was Dusty’s team “much” more healthy?

Buck Showalter makes 3.5 million and Don Mattingly makes 2.5 million. Most salaries aren’t public (or at least I can’t find them).
For a manager with his experience, he was underpaid.

[Slateman]

Was Dusty’s team “much” more healthy?

Is this a real question?

Dusty got a healthy Ryan Zimmerman and Daniel Murphy for the entire season, got MVP Harper for 4.5 months, and Strasburg only missed 4 starts. Also got much more out of the bench, but that may have actually been because of his coaching.

Other than the pen, can you tell me where MArtinez has had an advantage over Baker?

[miket14]

Other than the pen, can you tell me where MArtinez has had an advantage over Baker?

Not in regular season managing decisions 

[bluestreak]

Well the pen is a big deal. But he will get much more Eaton and he has Soto. Turner and Harper each missed over two months. And didn’t Werth miss a bunch of time too?

[UMDNats]

If Harper was hitting like an MVP like last year we'd be in first place, IMO. Biggest difference. He's been almost a zero for 2 months, and if he was playing at 2017 levels, we'd never have the crazy slumps that have killed us.

[Elvir Ovcina]

Is this a real question?

Dusty got a healthy Ryan Zimmerman and Daniel Murphy for the entire season, got MVP Harper for 4.5 months, and Strasburg only missed 4 starts. Also got much more out of the bench, but that may have actually been because of his coaching.

Other than the pen, can you tell me where MArtinez has had an advantage over Baker?

Turner missed 2 months last season, and Martinez has had a healthy Eaton longer as well (albeit only an additional month or so).  He also has had 60 games of Soto, which is better than anything Dusty had available in LF.  I don't think that's enough to balance out Murphy and Zimmerman (as well as Rendon's DL stint this year), but there is a little bit of mitigation there.  I'll leave alone whether Werth's absence for most of last year was a good or bad thing.  I don't blame this season on the manager: you hire a rookie manager, you can't expect him to save your season when other things go wrong.

One of the less-discussed issues in this year's disappointment is that the backups who have ended up getting a lot of playing time - MAT and Difo most prominently - had far better seasons last year, and the loss of the Howie Kendrick Safety Net really hurt.  I personally think that was more luck than anything Dusty did and that the 2018 versions of them is closer to their true abilities, but it's a noticeable difference nonetheless.