PB69 presents "Fire Dave Martinez" (2018)

[bluestreak]

Turner missed 2 months last season, and Martinez has had a healthy Eaton longer as well (albeit only an additional month or so).  He also has had 60 games of Soto, which is better than anything Dusty had available in LF.  I don't think that's enough to balance out Murphy and Zimmerman (as well as Rendon's DL stint this year), but there is a little bit of mitigation there.  I'll leave alone whether Werth's absence for most of last year was a good or bad thing.  I don't blame this season on the manager: you hire a rookie manager, you can't expect him to save your season when other things go wrong.

One of the less-discussed issues in this year's disappointment is that the backups who have ended up getting a lot of playing time - MAT and Difo most prominently - had far better seasons last year, and the loss of the Howie Kendrick Safety Net really hurt.  I personally think that was more luck than anything Dusty did and that the 2018 versions of them is closer to their true abilities, but it's a noticeable difference nonetheless.

Well one of the things that good coaches do is get the most out of players. I do believe Dusty had a role in those season. I could be wrong, though.

[HalfSmokes]

Was Dusty’s team “much” more healthy?

Buck Showalter makes 3.5 million and Don Mattingly makes 2.5 million. Most salaries aren’t public (or at least I can’t find them).
For a manager with his experience, he was underpaid.

Obviously- just look how much competition the nats had to beat out to hire him, or how many teams flocked to him after he was fired

[bluestreak]

Obviously- just look how much competition the nats had to beat out to hire him, or how many teams flocked to him after he was fired

Are you seriously arguing that the Lerners don’t go cheap on managers?

[Natsinpwc]

Turner missed 2 months last season, and Martinez has had a healthy Eaton longer as well (albeit only an additional month or so).  He also has had 60 games of Soto, which is better than anything Dusty had available in LF.  I don't think that's enough to balance out Murphy and Zimmerman (as well as Rendon's DL stint this year), but there is a little bit of mitigation there.  I'll leave alone whether Werth's absence for most of last year was a good or bad thing.  I don't blame this season on the manager: you hire a rookie manager, you can't expect him to save your season when other things go wrong.

One of the less-discussed issues in this year's disappointment is that the backups who have ended up getting a lot of playing time - MAT and Difo most prominently - had far better seasons last year, and the loss of the Howie Kendrick Safety Net really hurt.  I personally think that was more luck than anything Dusty did and that the 2018 versions of them is closer to their true abilities, but it's a noticeable difference nonetheless.

Also the Braves and Phillies are much better. There was no real competition last year in the division.

[HalfSmokes]

Are you seriously arguing that the Lerners don’t go cheap on managers?

Not on Dusty, he was paid middle of the road which was fair for someone no one else wanted. Even Davey is supposedly making the same as Cora- are saying the Red Sox are cheap?

[Slateman]

Well the pen is a big deal. But he will get much more Eaton and he has Soto. Turner and Harper each missed over two months. And didn’t Werth miss a bunch of time too?

Werth sucked. Playing him in the playoffs was reason enough alone to fire Dusty.

Like legit, Martinez's team is missing three  .900+ OPS bats that Dusty had. Last year we were talking about Ryan Zimmerman winning a freaking triple crown. A freakING TRIPLE CROWN PEOPLE.

 And up until about two weeks ago, Turner was a freaking train wreck at the plate. And people are all like, "Why isn't the offense consistent?" Like you have Juan Soto, Anthony Rendon, and then hope that someone else shows up that day.

[DCFan]

Werth sucked. Playing him in the playoffs was reason enough alone to fire Dusty.

That's what did it for me.

[bluestreak]

Werth sucked. Playing him in the playoffs was reason enough alone to fire Dusty.

Like legit, Martinez's team is missing three  .900+ OPS bats that Dusty had. Last year we were talking about Ryan Zimmerman winning a freaking triple crown. A freakING TRIPLE CROWN PEOPLE.

 And up until about two weeks ago, Turner was a freaking train wreck at the plate. And people are all like, "Why isn't the offense consistent?" Like you have Juan Soto, Anthony Rendon, and then hope that someone else shows up that day.

The Outfield was a MASH unit last year and Turner was playing well when he broke his wrist. I am not sure what you're arguing? What does Turner sucking this year have to do with Turner getting injured last year. And why is getting good production out of Zimm last year, but not this year not have anything to do with the manager. If you listen to most on this board, it's a plus that Zimm has been on the DL.
I never said there haven't been more injuries this year, there obviously have. I just don't think that it accounts for the much worse record. There were a significant number of injuries last year too.

[Jeff in Gaithersburg]

The Outfield was a MASH unit last year and Turner was playing well when he broke his wrist. I am not sure what you're arguing? What does Turner sucking this year have to do with Turner getting injured last year. And why is getting good production out of Zimm last year, but not this year not have anything to do with the manager. If you listen to most on this board, it's a plus that Zimm has been on the DL.
I never said there haven't been more injuries this year, there obviously have. I just don't think that it accounts for the much worse record. There were a significant number of injuries last year too.

Also have to remember though that Dusty had a full season of Zimm, Murphy, Rendon and Wieters, none of whom missed significant time. Little to no production most of the season from C, 1B, 2B and RF has had a huge impact. And Adams has missed several weeks as well. Last year they had Adam Lind available to fill in in LF, and through this point in the season last year Lind was hitting .320. Dusty absolutely gets credit for the hitting success last year but fact is Davey has been handcuffed not to mention the change in hitting coaches which has clearly been for the worse.

Also have to keep in mind that Stras only missed 4 starts last year and has made 1 in the last 7 weeks at this point, and at the time of his injury in June the team was red hot.

[welch]

dave has the same players that Dusty had, and Eaton has recovered. Rizzo added Herrera. dave's team wins big one game, FP announces that "this thing is turning around", and then they lose two or three in a row.

Fire dave. Plan for 2018.

[Slateman]

dave has the same players that Dusty had, and Eaton has recovered. Rizzo added Herrera. dave's team wins big one game, FP announces that "this thing is turning around", and then they lose two or three in a row.

Fire dave. Plan for 2018.

Now. He has the same players that Dusty had for the entire season, for the last three or four weeks.

[tzinc]

the arguments against Dusty are ludicrous
he had no BP for half a year and he had injuries and no bench
he still produced wins

meanwhile Camel Fan only produces excuses and many questionable moves
so what if teams are better so what if no one else took Dusty by the way he is consulting SF and SF is doing better than expected this year (just a coincedence I am sure)

I have never seen a manager cost a team as many games as Camel Fan has this year last years job was the best managing job I have seen in 40 years of watching baseball and this years is the worst

when you hire a no nothing joke of a manager it rubs off on the team the pressure to perform is off subconsciously

excuses excuses excuses is Cora using excuses in Boston with all their injuries and fighting a Yankee superteam? Did Dusty use excuses last year?

at the end of their careers just compare Camel Fans record vs Dusty's the answer is there for you

I seriously doubt Camel Fan will ever be hired to manage again

BTW the Lerners maybe Rizzo are like a lot of fans anyone can be hired to manage why pay out top dollar the team wins or loses not the manager

uh uh look at the records certain managers win a lot and others don't they do matter for wins and losses

[spidernat]

Dude, give it a rest already. Dusty Baker is 70 years old. How long do you think you can keep this up before you suck the man dry?

[aspenbubba]

Dude, give it a rest already. Dusty Baker is 70 years old. How long do you think you can keep this up before you suck the man dry?

Absolutely agree. He cited not one stat. Dusty was unemployed for two years prior and hasn’t had an offer when there were 7 managerial slots open this season.

[UMDNats]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/nationals/mike-rizzo-had-to-shore-up-the-nationals-clubhouse-because-dave-martinez-couldnt/2018/08/01/23e2c74c-95bb-11e8-810c-5fa705927d54_story.html

Not super revelatory, but does hammer home that Kintzler was a problem child.

Kintzler can say he didn't talk to Passan and Kintzler can also be someone who shared too much. Both can be true.

[varoadking]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/nationals/mike-rizzo-had-to-shore-up-the-nationals-clubhouse-because-dave-martinez-couldnt/2018/08/01/23e2c74c-95bb-11e8-810c-5fa705927d54_story.html

Not super revelatory, but does hammer home that Kintzler was a problem child.

Kintzler can say he didn't talk to Passan and Kintzler can also be someone who shared too much. Both can be true.

Good read...thanks...

[UMDNats]

Good read...thanks...

Barry is great and I wish he was back on the Nats beat. This team has a lot of interesting crap going on and I want all the content about it. I know I was on #TeamSell but since we didn't I hope we go on an awesome, memorable run and Davey finds his footing.

[imref]

Winning cures all. Keep winning. 

[KnorrForYourMoney]

Absolutely agree. He cited not one stat. Dusty was unemployed for two years prior and hasn’t had an offer when there were 7 managerial slots open this season.

And never won a World series all the while producing some of the worst chokes in baseball history.  He's the Marty Schottenheimer of baseball.  They weren't going to win a title with him, period.

[Slateman]

Dusty had no bench

Yet people have been complaining about the coaching staff not getting as much from the bench

Lind hit 303./362/.513   
Taylor (4th OFer): 271/.320/.486   
Difo (utility player) 271/.319/.370
Goodwin (5th OFer): 251/.313/.498   
Howie Kendrick: 52 games (versus 40 this season)

Dusty had a MUCH better bench than Martinez has.

[bluestreak]

Dusty had no bench

Yet people have been complaining about the coaching staff not getting as much from the bench

Lind hit 303./362/.513   
Taylor (4th OFer): 271/.320/.486   
Difo (utility player) 271/.319/.370
Goodwin (5th OFer): 251/.313/.498   
Howie Kendrick: 52 games (versus 40 this season)

Dusty had a MUCH better bench than Martinez has.

Adams cancels out Lind. And is it outside the realm of possibility that Dusty was the reason the bench performed well last year?

[Slateman]

Adams cancels out Lind. And is it outside the realm of possibility that Dusty was the reason the bench performed well last year?

Then pick one. Either Dusty is better and made the bench better, or he had a better bench. Either way, Dusty had a better bench.

[bluestreak]

Then pick one. Either Dusty is better and made the bench better, or he had a better bench. Either way, Dusty had a better bench.

????

[welch]

dave has the same players that Dusty had. Stats? Compare won-lost records. dave's Nats are a game above .500 at 54 - 53. Dusty's team at 107 games: 64 - 43.

Matt Willams lost the 2015 team. Has dave ever found the 2018 team? Sure, players like dave but have they played wining baseball for him?

[bluestreak]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/nationals/mike-rizzo-had-to-shore-up-the-nationals-clubhouse-because-dave-martinez-couldnt/2018/08/01/23e2c74c-95bb-11e8-810c-5fa705927d54_story.html

Not super revelatory, but does hammer home that Kintzler was a problem child.

Kintzler can say he didn't talk to Passan and Kintzler can also be someone who shared too much. Both can be true.

I thought the article was pretty damning. It’s clear we don’t have Casey Stengel on our hands... and I think it’s informative that his biggest supporter is Bryce.

The reality, though, is this: These Nationals are fragile, and the man in the lead chair at the moment is made of porcelain

But for all the games Martinez played — 1,918 in the majors, over 16 seasons — and the decade he spent as a big league coach, he has never occupied his current seat, and it shows. With their season set to either take off or implode, the Nationals are in a position in which they must protect their rookie skipper, rather than be led by him.

“You ask every manager that’s been in here: I’m in support of the manager at all times,” General Manager Mike Rizzo said Wednesday. “He’s the leader. He’s the leader in that clubhouse. I think Davey’s leading in a terrific manner.”

Except here’s the thing: The Nationals’ roster histrionics both before and after the trade deadline had to do with shoring up clubhouse support around that leader at least in part because Martinez couldn’t shore it up on his own.

There’s no problem with an organization jettisoning employees because they publicly embarrass leadership. But the point here is that the Nationals either couldn’t or didn’t shore up either of these issues internally. Kintzler and Kelley might not have been the most prominent pieces in a bullpen that must produce if the Nats are to climb back into the National League East race. But that bullpen is without injured closer Sean Doolittle, and that puts more strain on all the other parts; Ryan Madson and Kelvin Herrera each gave up solo homers Wednesday. Both Kintzler and Kelley were useful, and they’re essentially not here for the same reason: In the estimation of some Nats decision-makers, they either publicly or privately brought the manager’s leadership into question.