Author Topic: 2010 Offseason Wheeling and Dealing  (Read 115793 times)

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Offline PANatsFan

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Re: 2010 Offseason Wheeling and Dealing
« Reply #425 on: December 15, 2009, 01:40:20 pm »
Dunnkey, I can Throw, sportsfan882, tomterp, GMUNat and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.    You guys on Christmas break already? LOL!

I work (or try to) pretty much 362 days a year ( I try to avoid the Jewish high holidays), unless I go to the beach. Hopefully birth of son will be an off day!

Offline The Chief

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Re: 2010 Offseason Wheeling and Dealing
« Reply #426 on: December 15, 2009, 01:40:22 pm »
I said IF they all realize their potential, then you have roster with the perfect mix of homegrown players, trades, and FA's.

That's all I meant.

Fair enough.

Offline The Chief

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Re: 2010 Offseason Wheeling and Dealing
« Reply #427 on: December 15, 2009, 01:40:40 pm »
I work (or try to) pretty much 362 days a year ( I try to avoid the Jewish high holidays), unless I go to the beach. Hopefully birth of son will be an off day!

I'm a state employee.  Nuff said.

Offline DPMOmaha

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Re: 2010 Offseason Wheeling and Dealing
« Reply #428 on: December 15, 2009, 01:41:15 pm »
I'm a state employee.  Nuff said.
Hey, me too!

Offline PANatsFan

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Re: 2010 Offseason Wheeling and Dealing
« Reply #429 on: December 15, 2009, 01:41:34 pm »
I'm a state Commonwealth employee.  Nuff said.

Fixed.

Offline The Chief

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Re: 2010 Offseason Wheeling and Dealing
« Reply #430 on: December 15, 2009, 01:49:50 pm »
Fixed.

It didn't need fixing.  I can elaborate if you need.

Offline sportsfan882

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Re: 2010 Offseason Wheeling and Dealing
« Reply #431 on: December 15, 2009, 01:51:29 pm »
Do you work for a university, Chief?

Offline PANatsFan

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Re: 2010 Offseason Wheeling and Dealing
« Reply #432 on: December 15, 2009, 01:53:59 pm »
It didn't need fixing.  I can elaborate if you need.

sorry just more of my VA jokes.

Offline The Chief

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Re: 2010 Offseason Wheeling and Dealing
« Reply #433 on: December 15, 2009, 01:55:48 pm »
sorry just more of my VA jokes.

Isn't it bad enough our state commonwealth autonomous collective is named after virginity and is abbreviated VA? :lol:

Do you work for a university, Chief?

I work for the Lerners, duh.

Offline Lintyfresh85

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Re: 2010 Offseason Wheeling and Dealing
« Reply #434 on: December 15, 2009, 02:08:41 pm »
In 10 years he's won 87 games.  

Baseball-reference.com has him winning 12 games a year on average if he manages to stay healthy for an entire season - he's made 30 starts/season 3 times in 10 years.  

On what are you basing your belief?

In the past two seasons Piniero has reinvented himself as a pitcher.

From 2000-2007 Piniero spent his career in the AL. During that time he went 59-56 with a 4.50 ERA a WHIP of 1.37 and a SO/BB% of 1.99

From 2007-2009 when Piniero switched over to the NL he has completely changed how he pitches.

He lowered his ERA from 4.50 to a 4.14. His WHIP dropped from 1.37 to 1.26 and his SO/BB% climbed from 1.99 to 3.05.

Now that's all good and well... but the change that really took place was in the 2009 season when he completely changed how he pitched... and how he got the outs.

First change: Control
While in the AL, Piniero averaged 5.9 K's per 9 innings. He also walked 3 hitters per 9 innings.
While in the NL, Piniero averaged 4.8 K's per 9 innings. He dropped his walks to 1.6 per 9 innings.

Second change: Relying on the fastball
Joel Piniero has always sat right around 90 MPH on his fastball... that's a problem if you try to be a strike out pitcher like Piniero used to be. While trying to avoid using his fastball as much as possible while in the AL, Piniero was forced into using his secondary pitches to rack up the K's. Piniero only threw his fastball around 58% of the time from 2000-2008.

The change came in 2009 when Piniero completely remade himself by pounding the strike zone with fastball after fastball to a tune of 70% of all of the pitches he threw in 2009 were fastballs. The amazing thing about the change was that while Piniero was throwing 12% more fastballs than his career average... the average MPH on his pitch was 89 MPH. With a reliance on the fastball, Piniero no longer has to worry about throwing a bevy of pitches but can concentrate on his fastball and quality curveball.

Third change: The switch from a four seamer to a two seamer
Coming into 2009, Piniero was throwing his four seam fastball. That all changed in 2009 when Piniero threw a two seam fastball (same velocity as his four seamer I might add) slightly less than 50% of the time he threw a fastball.

The two seamers was a new pitch added to his arsenal and had a big change on his game. That change was.....

Fourth change: Piniero forces the ground ball
Coming into 2009, Joel Piniero has always sat around 45% GB rate. He also had a HR/FB ratio of about 13%. Once again, all of this would be common, and makes sense when you realize that Piniero was trying to be a strikeout artist with a subpar fastball.

2009 - Piniero induced an amazing 60.5% GB rate while lowering his HR/FB ratio to 6.5%. Some would say this change is unsustainable, but according to these stats, it's likely he won't regress but will continue on his path as a GB machine.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/is-pinerios-newfound-groundball-success-sustainable

Quote
Using our groundball data (dating back to 2002) I looked at every starting pitcher with at least 100 innings during that season and compared their rates to the preceding and following seasons. I found eight cases where a pitcher increased 10% from one year to the next. Those cases include Cliff Lee, Josh Beckett, Ryan Drese, Jon Garland, Johan Santana, CC Sabathia, Kris Benson, and John Thomson.

None of the pitchers suffered a 50% or higher loss in the next season. Only Jon Garland lost 5% or more, and only two pitchers gained more than 1%. All of which is to say that if the pitcher can show such improvement in causing groundballs, then the improvement is most likely legitimate rather than a sample size fluke. So what’s the improved part of Pineiro’s game? His fastballs.

For one, Gameday is now classifying a large chunk of Pineiro’s fastballs as two-seamers, which seems accurate. Pineiro’s four-seam fastballs are also breaking in to righties more and ‘up’ less. Whatever the pitch is, Pineiro is giving batters of both hands absolute fits this season.

Closing:
Did Dave Duncan lend a huge helping hand in making Piniero the pitcher he was in 2009? Absolutely. Can Joel Piniero sustain such momentum away from Duncan in 2010 and beyond? I believe it to be true.

As long as Piniero continues to pound the strike zone and pitch to contact rather than revert back to being a wanna-be strike out pitcher I see nothing that says Piniero cannot continue his success from 2009.

Offline DPMOmaha

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Re: 2010 Offseason Wheeling and Dealing
« Reply #435 on: December 15, 2009, 02:13:08 pm »
Closing:
Did Dave Duncan lend a huge helping hand in making Piniero the pitcher he was in 2009? Absolutely. Can Joel Piniero sustain such momentum away from Duncan in 2010 and beyond? I believe it to be true.

As long as Piniero continues to pound the strike zone and pitch to contact rather than revert back to being a wanna-be strike out pitcher I see nothing that says Piniero cannot continue his success from 2009.
Problem is, Dave Duncan products who have left St. Louis after showing great improvement under him, don't typically sustain that success and often revert to their previous levels of success (or non-success).  That's what I suspect more from Piniero rather than what we saw in St. Louis. 

Offline sportsfan882

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Re: 2010 Offseason Wheeling and Dealing
« Reply #436 on: December 15, 2009, 02:29:34 pm »
Dunn on the WJFK this morning:

Quote
Adam Dunn: "We're getting some of the riff-raff out of there."

who is he talking about?

Offline PANatsFan

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Re: 2010 Offseason Wheeling and Dealing
« Reply #437 on: December 15, 2009, 02:31:30 pm »
Dunn on the WJFK this morning:

who is he talking about?

Klej!?!

Meathook!?!?!

Weird.

Offline Minty Fresh

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Re: 2010 Offseason Wheeling and Dealing
« Reply #438 on: December 15, 2009, 02:35:59 pm »
Linty:  props for the research!

However, I see a couple of flaws:

(1) And DPM allused to this, Dave Duncan actually plays a huge part in this.  Those that leave the Cardinals system seem to fare worse than when they were there.

(2) Groundball pitchers rely heavily on infield defense to be successful.  If we go into the season with Guzman-Harris-Dunn from SS-1B, groundball pitchers will die a slow death.  If we are to get a pitcher like Piniero (as you suggest) then we will need to make sure that Desmond is ready to start and we will desperately need to upgrade 2B.  And Dunn has a lot of issues fielding ground balls at 1B.

(3)  Yadier Molina  >>>>>>>>>>  Jesus Flores  >>>>>>>>>>>>  Ivan Rodriguez.

(4)  Joel Piniero is not the only pitcher to benefit from a switch to the NL.

I'm not saying he sucks, I'm just saying that expecting him to be anything more than a Marquis or Garland might be hoping for too much.

Offline Lintyfresh85

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Re: 2010 Offseason Wheeling and Dealing
« Reply #439 on: December 15, 2009, 02:48:18 pm »
Linty:  props for the research!

However, I see a couple of flaws:

(1) And DPM allused to this, Dave Duncan actually plays a huge part in this.  Those that leave the Cardinals system seem to fare worse than when they were there.

(2) Groundball pitchers rely heavily on infield defense to be successful.  If we go into the season with Guzman-Harris-Dunn from SS-1B, groundball pitchers will die a slow death.  If we are to get a pitcher like Piniero (as you suggest) then we will need to make sure that Desmond is ready to start and we will desperately need to upgrade 2B.  And Dunn has a lot of issues fielding ground balls at 1B.

(3)  Yadier Molina  >>>>>>>>>>  Jesus Flores  >>>>>>>>>>>>  Ivan Rodriguez.

(4)  Joel Piniero is not the only pitcher to benefit from a switch to the NL.

I'm not saying he sucks, I'm just saying that expecting him to be anything more than a Marquis or Garland might be hoping for too much.

All fair points.

1. I think Piniero isn't so much a product of Duncan as he is a product of switching from a strict four seam diet of fastballs to a half/half mix of two seamers and four seamers.

2. Totally agree. That's why I was pushing for Everett or a defensive minded SS to be signed. Better fielders means Piniero would have had a better chance of recreating last year.

3. Once again.. agree.

4. Of course not... but at the same time, Piniero would still be in the NL and still would be benefiting from the switch.

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: 2010 Offseason Wheeling and Dealing
« Reply #440 on: December 15, 2009, 03:00:19 pm »
All fair points.

1. I think Piniero isn't so much a product of Duncan as he is a product of switching from a strict four seam diet of fastballs to a half/half mix of two seamers and four seamers.


I'm skeptical of any pitcher who really puts it together under duncan

Offline PatsNats28

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Re: 2010 Offseason Wheeling and Dealing
« Reply #441 on: December 15, 2009, 03:01:20 pm »
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4745486

Quote
Fomer Cuban national team starting pitcher Aroldis Chapman threw a bullpen session on Tuesday in Houston in front of representatives from 15 major league teams.

On Tuesday morning at the Baseball USA complex, the left-hander tossed two separate five-minute side sessions, throwing mostly in the 92-93 mph range and topping out at 96 mph. Chapman, 21, also threw his slider and change-up.

Team representatives who attended included Houston Astros general manager Ed Wade, Los Angeles Angels scouting director Eddie Bane, Florida Marlins vice president of player development Jim Fleming, Pittsburgh Pirates international scouting director Rene Gayo, and Baltimore Orioles international scouting director John Stockstill, according to the source. The Boston Red Sox and New York Yankees, who are expected to be heavy bidders for Chapman, each had one area scout in attendance.

Several teams were expected to meet with Chapman after the workout, at the offices of his agents, Randy and Alan Hendricks.

"I think it's important that he demonstrated that he's ready, that he's in shape, that he's throwing free and easy and that's what he did," Randy Hendricks said, according to KRIV-TV in Houston. "A lot of life on his pitches, threw real well. Not all-out, which is what we told the teams he would not do, but sufficient I think to let everybody know he's ready for prime time."

According to the report, the Cincinnati Reds, Washington Nationals, Kansas City Royals, Philadelphia Phillies, Chicago Cubs, Seattle Mariners, and Texas Rangers also had representatives in attendance.

"Everybody in baseball needed to see this and most everybody was here," Bane, the Angels' scouting director, said of the session, according to the report.

According to sources, Boston is the only team known to have made an offer for Chapman, for $15.5 million. But that offer was made a few weeks ago to his former agent, Edwin Mejia.

Randy Hendricks confirmed there are on offers on the table for Chapman, but did not disclose details, according to KRIV-TV.

Chapman, whose fastball was clocked at 102 mph at the World Baseball Classic this year, defected from the Cuban national team in August during a tournament in the Netherlands.

Offline Lintyfresh85

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Re: 2010 Offseason Wheeling and Dealing
« Reply #442 on: December 15, 2009, 03:02:58 pm »
You think Stras was tough? Well here's his twin, oh yeah... he's left handed!

Offline DPMOmaha

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Re: 2010 Offseason Wheeling and Dealing
« Reply #443 on: December 15, 2009, 03:03:06 pm »
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4745486
Sweet, once we get Yu Darvish too that will make for one spectacular rotation.

Offline PANatsFan

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Re: 2010 Offseason Wheeling and Dealing
« Reply #444 on: December 15, 2009, 03:05:39 pm »
I wanted Chapman all along, said he made sense for this team, but his agents SUCK.

Offline Minty Fresh

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Re: 2010 Offseason Wheeling and Dealing
« Reply #445 on: December 15, 2009, 03:09:44 pm »
I wanted Chapman all along, said he made sense for this team, but his agents SUCK.

I was going to ask the question where I had heard of the Hendricks boys before.  Was that Crow?

Offline PANatsFan

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Re: 2010 Offseason Wheeling and Dealing
« Reply #446 on: December 15, 2009, 03:10:07 pm »
I was going to ask the question where I had heard of the Hendricks boys before.  Was that Crow?


Give the man a bag of flaming dog poo.

Also the class act Roger Clemens.

Offline PatsNats28

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Re: 2010 Offseason Wheeling and Dealing
« Reply #447 on: December 15, 2009, 03:10:15 pm »
yup, Aaron Crow's agents... we have a -17.62% chance of getting chapman.

Offline sportsfan882

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Re: 2010 Offseason Wheeling and Dealing
« Reply #448 on: December 15, 2009, 03:26:09 pm »
Quote
jcrasnick: Agent Paul Kinzer says 16 teams have inquired on Matt Capps. The total is rising like a Labor Day telethon toteboard.

Quote
jcrasnick: About four teams like Capps as a closer. A few more will give him a chance to compete for a closing job. And 5-6 see him as a setup guy.

Quote
jcrasnick: Capps will sit down in a few days to cull through the offers. Brandon Lyon's 3-year, $15M deal certainly didn't hurt his cause.

Offline houston-nat

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Re: 2010 Offseason Wheeling and Dealing
« Reply #449 on: December 15, 2009, 04:06:42 pm »
Really?  I think the roster looks markedly different from the one that got us off to a 26-61 start.


As true as this is, and as much as I agree with you, we have to remember that last season we were saying pretty much the same thing. "Levale Speigner not being on the roster makes this team better" etc.