Author Topic: Fire Matt Williams! (2015) - Standard Decision.  (Read 159374 times)

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Offline Mr Clean

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Re: Fire Matt Williams! (2015) - Standard Decision.
« Reply #2525 on: October 05, 2015, 03:17:14 pm »
Terry Francona.
Isn't he under contract with Cleveland?

Ripken for bench coach BTW.

Offline ZIM4MVP

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Re: Fire Matt Williams! (2015) - Standard Decision.
« Reply #2526 on: October 05, 2015, 03:33:22 pm »
Isn't he under contract with Cleveland?

Ripken for bench coach BTW.

he has an opt-out i believe.  something to do with the GM leaving?

Offline Mr Clean

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Re: Fire Matt Williams! (2015) - Standard Decision.
« Reply #2527 on: October 05, 2015, 03:40:46 pm »
he has an opt-out i believe.  something to do with the GM leaving?
Get him!

Offline Kevrock

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Re: Fire Matt Williams! (2015) - Standard Decision.
« Reply #2528 on: October 05, 2015, 03:50:53 pm »
Billy Ripken for bench coach maybe

Offline varoadking

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Re: Fire Matt Williams! (2015) - Standard Decision.
« Reply #2529 on: October 05, 2015, 04:26:49 pm »

I'd be OK with Tito...

Offline welch

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Re: Fire Matt Williams! (2015) - Standard Decision.
« Reply #2530 on: October 05, 2015, 04:32:32 pm »
he has an opt-out i believe.  something to do with the GM leaving?

Francona's opt-out says that if the GM or team president leave, he can leave. One of them was just hired by Toronto. However, Francona says he feels committed to Cleveland at this time. (I just checked). "At this time" is one of those perfectly honest evasive answers. So, maybe.

Or Bud Black, who never had an organization in San Diego. Current Padres GM pulled off one of the worst series of trades: got Kemp, Norris, lost Turner and Ross in a side deal.

Online imref

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Re: Fire Matt Williams! (2015) - Standard Decision.
« Reply #2531 on: October 05, 2015, 04:37:06 pm »

Offline nattily attired

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Re: Fire Matt Williams! (2015) - Standard Decision.
« Reply #2532 on: October 05, 2015, 06:08:09 pm »
Matt Williams: Rizzo's fault. Paplebon: Rizzo.

Rizzo needs fired. He is the source of these problems.

Rizzo is to blame. He shouldn't have this job.

Fire Rizzo.

Offline MorseTheHorse

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Re: Fire Matt Williams! (2015) - Standard Decision.
« Reply #2533 on: October 05, 2015, 06:15:15 pm »
Rizzo bringing in Papelbon was just a shockingly bad decision...but I think he's made enough great calls otherwise that he should survive for one more year. 

Offline BeltwayBaseball

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Re: Fire Matt Williams! (2015) - Standard Decision.
« Reply #2534 on: October 05, 2015, 06:29:40 pm »
Holy crap, did I miss a lot!


Offline DPMOmaha

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Offline Mighty Casey

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Re: Fire Matt Williams! (2015) - Standard Decision.
« Reply #2537 on: October 05, 2015, 07:28:50 pm »
Rizzo should be tossed as well...he has made some bonehead decisions, but gets to stay (apparently) while firing others....
Hope Knorr gets a shot at the manager's position....
Ripken would be a mistake (lacking managerial experience...consider letting him manage in the minors for a season or two, if he really wants to manage)

Offline skippy1999

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Re: Fire Matt Williams! (2015) - Standard Decision.
« Reply #2538 on: October 05, 2015, 07:29:33 pm »
Holy crap, did I miss a lot!

You and me both, can't take a weekend off it seems :lol:

Offline varoadking

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Re: Fire Matt Williams! (2015) - Standard Decision.
« Reply #2539 on: October 05, 2015, 07:42:33 pm »

I want to know who's decision it was to trot E6 out there night after night after night.  If that was Rizzo, he needs to own that.

Offline BrandonK

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Re: Fire Matt Williams! (2015) - Standard Decision.
« Reply #2540 on: October 05, 2015, 08:12:06 pm »
I want to know who's decision it was to trot E6 out there night after night after night.  If that was Rizzo, he needs to own that.

Probably both. Matty loves him. RZO too, but wanted the QO pick at least

Offline whytev

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Re: Fire Matt Williams! (2015) - Standard Decision.
« Reply #2541 on: October 05, 2015, 08:35:05 pm »
Matt Williams: Rizzo's fault. Paplebon: Rizzo.

Rizzo needs fired. He is the source of these problems.

Rizzo is to blame. He shouldn't have this job.

Fire Rizzo.

He gets one more.  Everyone knows it.  He knows it.  One more.

Offline stoneghost28

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Re: Fire Matt Williams! (2015) - Standard Decision.
« Reply #2542 on: October 05, 2015, 10:54:10 pm »
He was good in the regular season in 2012 and 2014 as well and went on to totally melt down in the playoffs-would you have been comfortable going into this post season with Drew as your closer?

No doubt, if they had gone after a Chapman, or simply a sound middle reliever, something like that, I could have felt more empathetic, my issue wasn't Storen's confidence, his colossal choke jobs in the only two performances that ever mattered significantly had written the story on him as far as I was concerned, the fact that he choked big time repeatedly during the stretch run when we cut the Mets lead in half in late August/early September just underlined previously understood information. The problem was pinning our playoff hopes on adding a knuckledragging Australopithecus to the bullpen. If we couldn't get our target, adding a locker room cancer was just the cliche'd subtraction by addition.

But yeah, Storen? Until he proves he isn't a choker, he is one, and so far he's 0 for 3 when it comes to performing in the highest leverage situations of his career. Somebody somewhere, was it here, was it fangraphs? Can't remember, did a nice piece that underlined that yes, indeed, when the games and situations carry higher important he is in fact, significantly worse as a reliever. Didn't need the numbers to tell us as we all have seen it, but now we know the numbers say it, and experience does as well. He needed to go, and now maybe he stays after we jettison the missing link.

Offline whytev

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Re: Fire Matt Williams! (2015) - Standard Decision.
« Reply #2543 on: October 05, 2015, 11:13:14 pm »
No doubt, if they had gone after a Chapman, or simply a sound middle reliever, something like that, I could have felt more empathetic, my issue wasn't Storen's confidence, his colossal choke jobs in the only two performances that ever mattered significantly had written the story on him as far as I was concerned, the fact that he choked big time repeatedly during the stretch run when we cut the Mets lead in half in late August/early September just underlined previously understood information. The problem was pinning our playoff hopes on adding a knuckledragging Australopithecus to the bullpen. If we couldn't get our target, adding a locker room cancer was just the cliche'd subtraction by addition.

But yeah, Storen? Until he proves he isn't a choker, he is one, and so far he's 0 for 3 when it comes to performing in the highest leverage situations of his career. Somebody somewhere, was it here, was it fangraphs? Can't remember, did a nice piece that underlined that yes, indeed, when the games and situations carry higher important he is in fact, significantly worse as a reliever. Didn't need the numbers to tell us as we all have seen it, but now we know the numbers say it, and experience does as well. He needed to go, and now maybe he stays after we jettison the missing link.

Small sample size is the only thing I can say.

He needs to go because he's a malcontent whiner.  But I don't want Rizzo dealing two closers out of desperation.

If he can get a decent second baseman out of the deal, then sell high on Escobar, now we're talking.  But no desperation moves.  Better to keep him and shop him closer to the deadline.

Offline nats2playoffs

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Re: Fire Matt Williams! (2015) - Standard Decision.
« Reply #2544 on: October 05, 2015, 11:17:20 pm »
I advocated TRADING Matt Williams to Arizona last year, after they fired their manager, and were looking for someone. We could have gotten a player or prospects for him. Now we're paying him not to manage for one year.

http://www.wnff.net/index.php?topic=31924.msg1495095#msg1495095
 :evil:

Offline stoneghost28

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Re: Fire Matt Williams! (2015) - Standard Decision.
« Reply #2545 on: October 05, 2015, 11:36:28 pm »
Rizzo bringing in Papelbon was just a shockingly bad decision...but I think he's made enough great calls otherwise that he should survive for one more year.

Built one of the best farm systems in baseball collectively since 2009. That to me trumps everything. You can't win in baseball without talent and Rizzo is fantastic when it comes to winning trades, and drafting/scouting prospects, and pro's. I can forgive a bad decision in manager hiring, a bad decision in a free agent signing or trade deadline move. It's far harder to find guys that can develop a farm system like Rizzo's than it is to find an effective/competent manager. All studies suggest they don't matter so much unless they're horrifically bad like Williams, or outstanding like Bochy, or Maddon, I think we can find a league average manager much more easily than we can replace a GM who can build a farm system as superlative as Rizzo has done.

Online imref

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Re: Fire Matt Williams! (2015) - Standard Decision.
« Reply #2546 on: October 06, 2015, 12:06:28 am »
More piling on Williams (and Rizzo):

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/nationals/mike-rizzo-took-a-gamble-that-didnt-pan-out/2015/10/05/ec741418-686e-11e5-9223-70cb36460919_story.html

Money quote:
Quote
In the seventh inning of a tie game, with the Nationals facing elimination, Williams tabbed rookie Aaron Barrett to pitch out of a jam. In the other dugout, according to a person familiar with the situation, Giants Manager Bruce Bochy turned giddily incredulous that Williams had not instead chosen all-star Tyler Clippard, whom Bochy feared because of his experience and ability to face both left-handed and right-handed hitters. As Barrett warmed up, the person said, Bochy expressed to one of his coaches that Williams’s decision had just given the Giants the series. Two walks and a flurry of wild pitches later, the winning run scored and Bochy’s prediction came true. Clippard never saw the mound, and neither did Drew Storen or Stephen Strasburg.

Kilgore also notes that the players pushed for Knorr to get the job in 2013.

Offline stoneghost28

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Re: Fire Matt Williams! (2015) - Standard Decision.
« Reply #2547 on: October 06, 2015, 12:32:14 am »
Small sample size is the only thing I can say.

He needs to go because he's a malcontent whiner.  But I don't want Rizzo dealing two closers out of desperation.

If he can get a decent second baseman out of the deal, then sell high on Escobar, now we're talking.  But no desperation moves.  Better to keep him and shop him closer to the deadline.

I can't remember who did it, fangraphs maybe, but somebody dug into the numbers to see how Storen performs in high leverage situations, really number crunching, big data deal, and he graded out as we would have expected, as a guy who pitches substantially better when he's comfortable, with a solid lead, and not a lot of stress, and that he gets substantially worse, much worse, as the situation becomes more fraught with tension. It was large sample size, plenty of #'s, and it graded out very negatively. Wish I could remember where I saw the article, but it isn't small sample size based on that guys research.

I wouldn't kick him to the curb if we could bring him back, no doubt, I'd retain him, we'd get nothing for him at this point after all, but I'd also never use him again in high leverage situations that really, really matter, October style, late September style, that ship has sailed.

Offline stoneghost28

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Re: Fire Matt Williams! (2015) - Standard Decision.
« Reply #2548 on: October 06, 2015, 12:44:38 am »
More piling on Williams (and Rizzo):

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/nationals/mike-rizzo-took-a-gamble-that-didnt-pan-out/2015/10/05/ec741418-686e-11e5-9223-70cb36460919_story.html

Money quote:
Kilgore also notes that the players pushed for Knorr to get the job in 2013.

It's funny reading that last bit about Williams, "If he becomes more flexible...[ and learns from his mistakes yada yada...]. In our hand wringing thread from last year's choke job I and I imagine many others noted that Williams was anything but flexible, or open minded about the mistakes he made that cost the team so badly in last years playoffs. By his quotes it was patently obvious he'd learned nothing and believed 100% that he had made the right decisions, and things just didn't pan out. The guy is mentally incapable of actually thinking metacognitively, he's got a brick up there, a stubborn, rote, 1 highway brain that fixates on a plan and never deviates regardless of result.

That's the definition of a guy who isn't going to learn squat or ever become flexible. He was a monstrously bad hire considering how blatantly obvious these character traits are in any and every post-game interview, how in the hell someone like Rizzo could have missed this is beyond me, but regardless, he isn't learning squat, or getting flexibile, and I'd be absolutely stunned if anyone is ever stupid enough to hire him again. The fact that he won manager of the year, btw, is just a hilarious indictment of all "..of the year" awards.

Offline OldChelsea

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Re: Fire Matt Williams! (2015) - Standard Decision.
« Reply #2549 on: October 06, 2015, 07:11:54 am »
[...]Ripken for bench coach BTW.

Ripken for absolutely nothing connected with the Nats...not even cleaning rest-rooms.