Author Topic: Fire Matt Williams! (2015) - Standard Decision.  (Read 159933 times)

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Offline mitlen

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Re: Fire Matt Williams! (2015)
« Reply #925 on: August 12, 2015, 12:06:34 pm »
The author reads WNFF:

"Better than a season-and-a-half into his tenure, with teachable moments mounting all around him, he still doesn’t grasp the difference between devising a strategy and actually managing a team. The strategy is already in place. The managing isn’t happening."

http://wtop.com/washington-nationals/2015/08/column-500-days-of-the-boys-of-summer-or-why-the-nats-need-to-fire-matt-williams/

Offline Ray D

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Re: Fire Matt Williams! (2015)
« Reply #926 on: August 12, 2015, 12:23:08 pm »

You shouldn’t have an “eighth inning guy,” because the eighth inning is an abstract concept,


What a great line.

Offline Ray D

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Re: Fire Matt Williams! (2015)
« Reply #927 on: August 12, 2015, 12:34:18 pm »
Almost exactly what I said. Except that the author doesn't know the word "tactics."
I think he uses "management"  as short for "tactical management".

Offline aspenbubba

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Re: Fire Matt Williams! (2015)
« Reply #928 on: August 12, 2015, 12:44:10 pm »
I have been following this thread since it's inception and have contributed very little . Reading the WTOP article has definitely put me in the fire Matt Williams camp. I doubt it will happen before seasons end and it is not about the Lerners money. It is already a sunk cost as is 2016. It just needs to happen sooner rather than later. If Desmond hasn't been benched I see no reason why Rizzo would fire Williams. 

Offline dshawg77

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Re: Fire Matt Williams! (2015)
« Reply #929 on: August 12, 2015, 12:52:06 pm »
The author reads WNFF:

"Better than a season-and-a-half into his tenure, with teachable moments mounting all around him, he still doesn’t grasp the difference between devising a strategy and actually managing a team. The strategy is already in place. The managing isn’t happening."

http://wtop.com/washington-nationals/2015/08/column-500-days-of-the-boys-of-summer-or-why-the-nats-need-to-fire-matt-williams/

Ha! just saw this on my Facebook feed.

Never been a huge Matt Williams fan but my co-worker likes him.

Who do you put in charge mid-season? Exactly why it won't happen.

Offline Ray D

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Re: Fire Matt Williams! (2015)
« Reply #930 on: August 12, 2015, 12:54:21 pm »
Who do you put in charge mid-season?

Bud Black comes to mind.

Offline Slateman

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Re: Fire Matt Williams! (2015)
« Reply #931 on: August 12, 2015, 01:05:06 pm »
You shouldn’t have an “eighth inning guy,” because the eighth inning is an abstract concept,

What a great line.

Except this has been a tactic for the last decade and is now, more than ever, at the forefront of teams' strategies.

Offline Slateman

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Re: Fire Matt Williams! (2015)
« Reply #932 on: August 12, 2015, 01:05:18 pm »
Ha! just saw this on my Facebook feed.

Never been a huge Matt Williams fan but my co-worker likes him.

Who do you put in charge mid-season? Exactly why it won't happen.
Randy Knorr

Offline Ray D

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Re: Fire Matt Williams! (2015)
« Reply #933 on: August 12, 2015, 01:08:28 pm »
Except this has been a tactic for the last decade and is now, more than ever, at the forefront of teams' strategies.
But there are some managers who have an eighth inning guy, and when the eighth inning comes around, they use that guy if there isn't a better choice, for the given situation - matchups, etc.  If there is, they use the better choice.

Offline Slateman

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Re: Fire Matt Williams! (2015)
« Reply #934 on: August 12, 2015, 01:13:00 pm »
But there are some managers who have an eighth inning guy, and when the eighth inning comes around, they use that guy if there isn't a better choice, for the given situation - matchups, etc.  If there is, they use the better choice.

Who? Because the Royals and several other teams are making the playoffs because they have set 7/8/9 inning guys, and the manager knows all he has to do is manage 6 innings.

The set up man and closer role have been established for a while now.

Offline Ray D

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Re: Fire Matt Williams! (2015)
« Reply #935 on: August 12, 2015, 01:17:22 pm »
Who? Because the Royals and several other teams are making the playoffs because they have set 7/8/9 inning guys, and the manager knows all he has to do is manage 6 innings.

The set up man and closer role have been established for a while now.
Having three guys to pitch 7/8/9 is fine, but they don't have to pitch in that order.  Just recently, I think it was the Mets, who switched their eighth and ninth guy in one game because of matchups.


Offline dshawg77

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Re: Fire Matt Williams! (2015)
« Reply #936 on: August 12, 2015, 01:24:21 pm »
Bud Black comes to mind.

Bud Black is a good option but would he do it?

I just don't think this a serious consideration. Could be wrong...

Offline Ray D

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Re: Fire Matt Williams! (2015)
« Reply #937 on: August 12, 2015, 01:34:58 pm »
Bud Black is a good option but would he do it?

Why wouldn't he? It's not as though he quit the Padres and doesn't want to manage; they fired him.  And I would think Nats Manager would be a plum job.  There are alot of dysfunctional organizations out there.  Nationals are not one of them.

Offline whytev

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Re: Fire Matt Williams! (2015)
« Reply #938 on: August 12, 2015, 01:35:20 pm »
I thought we'd have lost you to TBJFF.net by now

I rooted for the Phillies.

Offline varoadking

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Re: Fire Matt Williams! (2015)
« Reply #939 on: August 12, 2015, 01:50:35 pm »
The author reads WNFF:

"Better than a season-and-a-half into his tenure, with teachable moments mounting all around him, he still doesn’t grasp the difference between devising a strategy and actually managing a team. The strategy is already in place. The managing isn’t happening."

http://wtop.com/washington-nationals/2015/08/column-500-days-of-the-boys-of-summer-or-why-the-nats-need-to-fire-matt-williams/

Thanks...that was a good read...


Offline skippy1999

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Re: Fire Matt Williams! (2015)
« Reply #940 on: August 12, 2015, 03:15:31 pm »
Thanks...that was a good read...

But sad, because they aren't going to fire Matt Williams :(

Offline ajcartwright

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Re: Fire Matt Williams! (2015)
« Reply #941 on: August 12, 2015, 05:11:17 pm »

Offline shoeshineboy

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Re: Fire Matt Williams! (2015)
« Reply #942 on: August 12, 2015, 05:21:38 pm »
The WTOP article is good and points out some very key issues. There is a lot more involved in being a manager of a team than the in-game decisions around pitching changes and drawing up a lineup card. A child can do that, given the right information. Managers don't get paid big bucks to manage the in-game moves that can be pulled off by any push button manager. Having a lefty warmed up to face a LHB in a specific situation is not some act of genius or high baseball IQ, but simple basics. It's why it is so predictable when other teams do it. Obviously, Harper has stated that he loves playing for Matt, so there is more going on than in-game management.

Still, the lineup decisions and the bullpen moves have been consistently questionable to bad on a regular basis as the column points out. We've seen this kind of thing with other managers as well. So it begs a lot of questions. If this is so elementary and obvious to so many, replacing MW would have to assume that a different manager would act differently, otherwise what is the point. So, in turn, that would mean you would be firing a manager for the sole purpose of having someone make in-game push button moves that any novice could pull off.

And this is where the big question has to be asked. How is it possible that a manager on a team (particularly an unproven second year manager like Williams who didn't really pick his own staff) would be allowed to continue to do things that others in the organization would not do and blatantly disagree with? The whole premise that this is all due to Matt Williams lacking a fundamental understanding of basic in-game management would suggest that not only Mike Rizzo would be at odds with him, but all the players (particularly the pitchers), and more importantly, McCatty and Knorr are being overruled as well. This kind of thing shouldn't be falling on the manager to micromanage. For freak's sake, a primary job of a pitching coach and bench coach should be to anticipate situations and either suggest or at least prepare for moves.

An just using the examples mentioned in the article, both last year's situation against the LAA and this last week against CarGo and the Rockies, I would expect both Knorr and McCatty to assume it would be a good idea to have a matchup guy prepped to cover a situation when a LOOGY may be appropriate and simply make the call to the pen to get a guy warmed up. Even if the protocol is to get the manager to ok it, it should still be something that they propose and assume should be done.

So here's the 64 dollar question. Are Knorr and McCatty NOT suggesting these things or are they and being overruled consistently? In either case, I would argue that it isn't an issue with MW simply not pushing the right buttons, but fundamental systemic flaw in the organizational management. This is the same issue I saw with the consistent obsession with HRod, and in the past, WMP. That can't be a one-man obsession. It has to be an organizational thing, especially when the manager is second-year guy still relying upon his deputies and not some HoF manager with rings.

It just seems inconceivable that Matt Williams is operating as some rogue manager making decisions on lineups and bullpen management that contradict the philosophy of the rest of the coaching staff and the FO.

Offline skippy1999

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Re: Fire Matt Williams! (2015)
« Reply #943 on: August 12, 2015, 05:39:08 pm »
It just seems inconceivable that Matt Williams is operating as some rogue manager making decisions on lineups and bullpen management that contradict the philosophy of the rest of the coaching staff and the FO.

Good post.   I found it really odd back when Williams was hired that they foisted McCatty and more importantly Knorr (a guy who wanted the stinking job!) on Williams, and I found it odd he so readily agreed to keep those coaches on his staff.  It seems as though there has been one big dog calling all of these shots, so...

Fire Rizzo

:shrug:

Offline NatsAllThe Way

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Re: Fire Matt Williams! (2015)
« Reply #944 on: August 12, 2015, 05:43:51 pm »
It just makes no sense to me that we as fans know better than a guy who spent his whole career in the sport and now gets paid millions of dollars to manage a MLB team.  Are we missing something, or would most of us actually be better MLB managers than his?  Something tells me we aren't as good at managing a ball team as this guy is. 

Offline monkeyhit

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Re: Fire Matt Williams! (2015)
« Reply #945 on: August 12, 2015, 05:55:42 pm »
The WTOP article is good and points out some very key issues. There is a lot more involved in being a manager of a team than the in-game decisions around pitching changes and drawing up a lineup card. A child can do that, given the right information. Managers don't get paid big bucks to manage the in-game moves that can be pulled off by any push button manager. Having a lefty warmed up to face a LHB in a specific situation is not some act of genius or high baseball IQ, but simple basics. It's why it is so predictable when other teams do it. Obviously, Harper has stated that he loves playing for Matt, so there is more going on than in-game management.

Still, the lineup decisions and the bullpen moves have been consistently questionable to bad on a regular basis as the column points out. We've seen this kind of thing with other managers as well. So it begs a lot of questions. If this is so elementary and obvious to so many, replacing MW would have to assume that a different manager would act differently, otherwise what is the point. So, in turn, that would mean you would be firing a manager for the sole purpose of having someone make in-game push button moves that any novice could pull off.

And this is where the big question has to be asked. How is it possible that a manager on a team (particularly an unproven second year manager like Williams who didn't really pick his own staff) would be allowed to continue to do things that others in the organization would not do and blatantly disagree with? The whole premise that this is all due to Matt Williams lacking a fundamental understanding of basic in-game management would suggest that not only Mike Rizzo would be at odds with him, but all the players (particularly the pitchers), and more importantly, McCatty and Knorr are being overruled as well. This kind of thing shouldn't be falling on the manager to micromanage. For freak's sake, a primary job of a pitching coach and bench coach should be to anticipate situations and either suggest or at least prepare for moves.

An just using the examples mentioned in the article, both last year's situation against the LAA and this last week against CarGo and the Rockies, I would expect both Knorr and McCatty to assume it would be a good idea to have a matchup guy prepped to cover a situation when a LOOGY may be appropriate and simply make the call to the pen to get a guy warmed up. Even if the protocol is to get the manager to ok it, it should still be something that they propose and assume should be done.

So here's the 64 dollar question. Are Knorr and McCatty NOT suggesting these things or are they and being overruled consistently? In either case, I would argue that it isn't an issue with MW simply not pushing the right buttons, but fundamental systemic flaw in the organizational management. This is the same issue I saw with the consistent obsession with HRod, and in the past, WMP. That can't be a one-man obsession. It has to be an organizational thing, especially when the manager is second-year guy still relying upon his deputies and not some HoF manager with rings.

It just seems inconceivable that Matt Williams is operating as some rogue manager making decisions on lineups and bullpen management that contradict the philosophy of the rest of the coaching staff and the FO.

It appears to be systemic and not just Williams. McCatty, Schu and Knorr are getting a free ride. As much as I want Williams gone, the Lerners must see by now that Rizzo has mismanaged their franchise badly, with extensions and free agent signings that are now or soon will be anchors dragging down the organization, with remarkable misguided focus on starting pitching and neglect of hitting. They should see the mediocrity of the farm system that Rizzo has built - not a single power hitter within sight and very hittable pitchers like Giolito, Fedde, Cole and Lopez the only HOPE that some fans foolishly cling to.

As Skippy says, "Fire Rizzo." Matt is dumb but Rizzo hired him.

Offline NatsAllThe Way

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Re: Fire Matt Williams! (2015)
« Reply #946 on: August 12, 2015, 05:57:27 pm »
It appears to be systemic and not just Williams. McCatty, Schu and Knorr are getting a free ride. As much as I want Williams gone, the Lerners must see by now that Rizzo has mismanaged their franchise badly, with extensions and free agent signings that are now or soon will be anchors dragging down the organization, with remarkable misguided focus on starting pitching and neglect of hitting. They should see the mediocrity of the farm system that Rizzo has built - not a single power hitter within sight and very hittable pitchers like Giolito, Fedde, Cole and Lopez the only HOPE that some fans foolishly cling to.

As Skippy says, "Fire Rizzo." Matt is dumb but Rizzo hired him.

That philosophy seems to have worked well for the Mets.

Offline monkeyhit

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Re: Fire Matt Williams! (2015)
« Reply #947 on: August 12, 2015, 06:04:03 pm »
That philosophy seems to have worked well for the Mets.

Not until they brought in Johnson, Uribe and Cespedes...now they have a lineup. We don't.
Not to mention young guys like D'Armaud, Flores and Duda, who are cheao but can actually hit.
Who is pulling them down like the contracts of Werth, Zim and Scherzer?

Offline NatsAllThe Way

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Re: Fire Matt Williams! (2015)
« Reply #948 on: August 12, 2015, 06:06:43 pm »
Not until they brought in Johnson, Uribe and Cespedes...now they have a lineup. We don't.
Not to mention young guys like D'Armaud, Flores and Duda, who are cheao but can actually hit.
Who is pulling them down like the contracts of Werth, Zim and Scherzer?
We have a better lineup than the Mets when we're healthy.

Online Natsinpwc

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Re: Fire Matt Williams! (2015)
« Reply #949 on: August 12, 2015, 06:16:24 pm »
Other than Span we have had the lineup together for a couple of weeks and during that time we have lost ground.  It doesn't matter what guys did before. They are not doing it this year. Desmond, Ramos and Werth are killing us.   And yet the manager pencils in their names all the time. Matt has no feel for the lineup or the bullpen
Longer term the team seems to be in a bind with lack of left handed hitting regulars (assuming Span does not return). Werth and Zimmerman are not movable contracts so they seem to be stuck. That part is on Rizzo.