Author Topic: Jayson Werth signs w/ Nationals for 7y/$126m  (Read 39865 times)

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Offline Kevrock

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Re: Jayson Werth signs w/ Nationals for 7y/$126m
« Reply #575 on: December 09, 2010, 09:52:24 am »
What was the reaction to the 7/120 Matt Holliday deal last year?

Offline PANatsFan

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Re: Jayson Werth signs w/ Nationals for 7y/$126m
« Reply #576 on: December 09, 2010, 10:02:21 am »
What was the reaction to the 7/120 Matt Holliday deal last year?

Absolute derision, but Werth is a better fielder, this is a better deal.

Offline Sharp

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Re: Jayson Werth signs w/ Nationals for 7y/$126m
« Reply #577 on: December 09, 2010, 10:03:26 am »
Who cares? You realize that if we didn't give Werth what we did, he'd be in Boston, right?  The Sox were apparently "furious" by the Nats landing him, as they built their entire off-season around signing Werth, and gave the money to Crawford instead.  We got the better player for less money.
Huh?  It's pretty much universally agreed we got the worse player for less money.

Offline hammondsnats

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Re: Jayson Werth signs w/ Nationals for 7y/$126m
« Reply #578 on: December 09, 2010, 10:43:29 am »
The Crawford deal is being questioned.  A ton of people think it's insane.  And most people blame the Werth deal for it.

go to mlbtraderumors.com and look at the line-up of crawford reactions. 

Offline NatsDad14

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Re: Jayson Werth signs w/ Nationals for 7y/$126m
« Reply #579 on: December 09, 2010, 11:54:28 am »
Absolute derision, but Werth is a better fielder, this is a better deal.
Werth is not a better deal than Holliday. You have to be delusional to think that. Holliday had 4.0 WAR, 7.1 WAR, 5.7 WAR, 5.6 WAR in the 4 years before his deal then had a 6.9 WAR in his first year of the deal compare that to 3.2, 5.1, 4.9, 5.0 for Werth. Not to mention that Holliday was 30 entering the first year of his deal while Werth will be 32 in May.

Offline Lintyfresh85

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Re: Jayson Werth signs w/ Nationals for 7y/$126m
« Reply #580 on: December 09, 2010, 12:07:47 pm »
Don't have anything to add to what GMU said... but, really, please change your avatar... I never want to hear about Tony Plush, ever again.

Nyjer Morgan can play some ball... Tony Plush is garbage.

Offline PANatsFan

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Re: Jayson Werth signs w/ Nationals for 7y/$126m
« Reply #581 on: December 09, 2010, 01:29:23 pm »
Werth is not a better deal than Holliday. You have to be delusional to think that. Holliday had 4.0 WAR, 7.1 WAR, 5.7 WAR, 5.6 WAR in the 4 years before his deal then had a 6.9 WAR in his first year of the deal compare that to 3.2, 5.1, 4.9, 5.0 for Werth. Not to mention that Holliday was 30 entering the first year of his deal while Werth will be 32 in May.

Coors Field

Offline hammondsnats

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Re: Jayson Werth signs w/ Nationals for 7y/$126m
« Reply #582 on: December 09, 2010, 01:38:21 pm »
werth vs. crawford is an interesting debate, but they both bring a lot to the table.

werth has the better power bat, crawford has more speed, they are both athletic in their own rights and both were coveted.  I'm happy with our deal. 

Offline Minty Fresh

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Re: Jayson Werth signs w/ Nationals for 7y/$126m
« Reply #583 on: December 09, 2010, 01:39:15 pm »
werth vs. crawford is an interesting debate, but they both bring a lot to the table.

werth has the better power bat, crawford has more speed, they are both athletic in their own rights and both were coveted.  I'm happy with our deal. 

I am too.  I actually posted when this debate started that I'd rather have Werth over Crawford.  I think he's the better fit.

Offline Potomac Cannons

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Re: Jayson Werth signs w/ Nationals for 7y/$126m
« Reply #584 on: December 09, 2010, 01:56:25 pm »
Coors Field

Silly fact that everyone else picked up on.  Then there's the defensive value of each player.

Offline hammondsnats

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Re: Jayson Werth signs w/ Nationals for 7y/$126m
« Reply #585 on: December 09, 2010, 02:15:08 pm »
I am too.  I actually posted when this debate started that I'd rather have Werth over Crawford.  I think he's the better fit.

I said if we had kept Dunn, Crawford should be the guy we get.  But with LaRoche + Werth, we'll get more homers from two positions than we would've with Dunn + Bernadina (imo).    

And I'm not just saying I love this signing because the Lerners spent money.  I am happy because it feels a position we badly needed.  

With that said, let's get LaRoche, pitching and some bench spots (down the road).

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Jayson Werth signs w/ Nationals for 7y/$126m
« Reply #586 on: December 09, 2010, 02:32:41 pm »
lol so the nats signing werth for 7y/$126m is awful, but red sox signing crawford for 7y/$142 is a "bargain" and such a great deal?  gtfohwtbs
Yep...I think if Werth had the track record of performance that Crawford has, the deal wouldn't be nearly as questioned.
Epic.

Offline hammondsnats

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Re: Jayson Werth signs w/ Nationals for 7y/$126m
« Reply #587 on: December 09, 2010, 02:36:41 pm »
Epic.

Epic?  I'm still waiting to hear why the Nats should get shafted and Red Sox praised?  Nats signed one of the top free agents on the market this offseason.  For less money than Crawford.  And yes Crawford deserved more money, he got it.  Fine.  But the Nats shouldn't be blasted like they are by some people. 

Oh because there are so many bandwagon d-bags who like to yell Nomaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa and Youuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuk?  Or because there are a lot of hot chicks that don't know more than two players on the team (much like the dbags) that "like" the Red Sox, because they own a pink hat with a B on it.

Sorry, I just hate the freakin Red Sox.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Jayson Werth signs w/ Nationals for 7y/$126m
« Reply #588 on: December 09, 2010, 02:40:02 pm »
Sorry, I just hate the freakin Red Sox.
true.

Offline NatsDad14

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Re: Jayson Werth signs w/ Nationals for 7y/$126m
« Reply #589 on: December 09, 2010, 04:19:56 pm »
Coors Field
Those numbers adjust for that. Plus, he played a season away from Coors the year before he was a free agent and last year he was in a pitcher's park and put up good numbers. It's not like Jayson Werth didn't play in a hitters park himself.

Offline Minty Fresh

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Re: Jayson Werth signs w/ Nationals for 7y/$126m
« Reply #590 on: December 09, 2010, 04:22:20 pm »
true.

I'm starting to hate them less and less with each passing year.

Offline KnorrForYourMoney

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Re: Jayson Werth signs w/ Nationals for 7y/$126m
« Reply #591 on: December 09, 2010, 04:47:20 pm »
Silly fact that everyone else picked up on.  Then there's the defensive value of each player.

WAR - a stat that you apparently only like to use selectively - adjusts for both defense and park factors.

Amazing how transparent P Brain is about selectively citing stats to support arguments when it behooves him.

Offline R-Zim#11

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Re: Jayson Werth signs w/ Nationals for 7y/$126m
« Reply #592 on: December 10, 2010, 09:59:58 am »
Epic?  I'm still waiting to hear why the Nats should get shafted and Red Sox praised?  Nats signed one of the top free agents on the market this offseason.  For less money than Crawford.  And yes Crawford deserved more money, he got it.  Fine.  But the Nats shouldn't be blasted like they are by some people. 

Oh because there are so many bandwagon d-bags who like to yell Nomaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa and Youuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuk?  Or because there are a lot of hot chicks that don't know more than two players on the team (much like the dbags) that "like" the Red Sox, because they own a pink hat with a B on it.

Sorry, I just hate the freakin Red Sox.

I don't entirely disagree with what Stark had to say, especially this part:

Quote from: Jayson Stark
On one hand, we understand what the Nationals were trying to accomplish here. When your franchise hasn't played a postseason game in 30 years and all the people around you have been numbed by all the losing, you need to do something dramatic and eye-popping to get their attention and change that culture. So there was nothing wrong, in theory, with signing Werth, a very good player who was an underrated part of that Phillies quasi-NL East dynasty.

Depsite what KLaw says, we had to overpay to get him. No one is debating they over-paid, but they didn't get shut out, and they got their man...unlike the Yankees!!!

I don't see how San Diego are winners for basically being the Nats, trading A-Gon for prospects is a crap shoot, Maybin is a bust, and signing Derrick Lee? Sorry, I don't see how they are winners.

I can't complain about what the Sahx did, although it does feel good to snatch Werth right out from under their noses. I also find it funny how big market teams like the Sahx and Mets complain about the Nats overspending...

Offline Kevrock

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Re: Jayson Werth signs w/ Nationals for 7y/$126m
« Reply #593 on: December 10, 2010, 10:22:31 am »
I can't complain about what the Sahx did, although it does feel good to snatch Werth right out from under their noses. I also find it funny how big market teams like the Sahx and Mets complain about the Nats overspending...

It's in their best interest for the Nats to not spend any money. I wouldn't worry about anonymous comments by GMs.

Alderson should shut his mouth until Bobby Bonilla comes off his books.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Jayson Werth signs w/ Nationals for 7y/$126m
« Reply #594 on: December 10, 2010, 10:22:48 am »
I can't complain about what the Sahx did, although it does feel good to snatch Werth right out from under their noses. I also find it funny how big market teams like the Sahx and Mets complain about the Nats overspending...
Here's two things I don't get, and maybe you can help me on this.  If you threw out the contracts, would you rather have Crawford for the Nats or Werth?  Philly was going to lose Werth and not sign Crawford, so throw out that factor. 

Would you rather have the younger, better athlete, regarded as the best defensive left fielder in baseball, who is dangerous whenever he is on base, maturing into a 20 HR hitter, an LHB in a park that favors lefty batter slightly, and has performed well for several years, or would you rather have a RHB whose spray charts show he might be slightly adversely affected by the ballpark switch, has performed well for fewer years but seems to be maturing into a star, has an RF arm, a very good athlete and a good but not great defender?   To my eye, Crawford would have been better here, and Werth there, given their skills, ballparks, and surrounding line ups. 

The Werth contract, being first, probably did change the market more favorably to ballplayers.  I think there's somewhat greater likelihood of stranded costs in Werth's deal than in Crawford's, but I agree that for the franchise, the Nats had to run a bigger risk of stranded costs. I'm not sure there's a basis to "feel good about snatching" one from "under their noses," and I'd like to see a quote from anyone linked to the Sox saying they are ticked off about the way the Nats spent.  When they lost Contreras to the NYY, there was broken furniture and pounded tables. There's none of that here.

Offline hammondsnats

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Re: Jayson Werth signs w/ Nationals for 7y/$126m
« Reply #595 on: December 10, 2010, 10:38:43 am »
Here's two things I don't get, and maybe you can help me on this.  If you threw out the contracts, would you rather have Crawford for the Nats or Werth?  Philly was going to lose Werth and not sign Crawford, so throw out that factor. 

Would you rather have the younger, better athlete, regarded as the best defensive left fielder in baseball, who is dangerous whenever he is on base, maturing into a 20 HR hitter, an LHB in a park that favors lefty batter slightly, and has performed well for several years, or would you rather have a RHB whose spray charts show he might be slightly adversely affected by the ballpark switch, has performed well for fewer years but seems to be maturing into a star, has an RF arm, a very good athlete and a good but not great defender?   To my eye, Crawford would have been better here, and Werth there, given their skills, ballparks, and surrounding line ups. 

The Werth contract, being first, probably did change the market more favorably to ballplayers.  I think there's somewhat greater likelihood of stranded costs in Werth's deal than in Crawford's, but I agree that for the franchise, the Nats had to run a bigger risk of stranded costs. I'm not sure there's a basis to "feel good about snatching" one from "under their noses," and I'd like to see a quote from anyone linked to the Sox saying they are ticked off about the way the Nats spent.  When they lost Contreras to the NYY, there was broken furniture and pounded tables. There's none of that here.

as i said when we lost dunn, we went with someone who has more pop in the bat.  if we had kept dunn we would've gone after crawford (i have a feeling).

Offline R-Zim#11

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Re: Jayson Werth signs w/ Nationals for 7y/$126m
« Reply #596 on: December 10, 2010, 12:10:31 pm »
To my eye, Crawford would have been better here, and Werth there, given their skills, ballparks, and surrounding line ups.

as i said when we lost dunn, we went with someone who has more pop in the bat.  if we had kept dunn we would've gone after crawford (i have a feeling).

Crawford had repeatedly stated he wanted to play for a winner and wouldn't sign elsewhere. Getting Crawford was not going to happen. Likewise, JCA, it was reported and fairly-well known Werth was Boston bound...

Offline Lintyfresh85

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Re: Jayson Werth signs w/ Nationals for 7y/$126m
« Reply #597 on: December 10, 2010, 12:52:51 pm »
Isn't it though?

I thought WAR was based off of wOBA, which is park adjusted.

Edit: Hmm... seems the post I was quoting has vanished.

Offline Kevrock

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Re: Jayson Werth signs w/ Nationals for 7y/$126m
« Reply #598 on: December 10, 2010, 12:55:37 pm »
Crawford had repeatedly stated he wanted to play for a winner and wouldn't sign elsewhere. Getting Crawford was not going to happen. Likewise, JCA, it was reported and fairly-well known Werth was Boston bound...

Yeah. For all we know we offered a contract to Crawford and he wasn't interested. Rizzo hasn't been negotiating through the media.

Offline Sharp

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Re: Jayson Werth signs w/ Nationals for 7y/$126m
« Reply #599 on: December 10, 2010, 12:56:27 pm »
Isn't it though?

I thought WAR was based off of wOBA, which is park adjusted.

Edit: Hmm... seems the post I was quoting has vanished.
wOBA isn't park adjusted, though wRC+ is, which is why I thought Fangraphs WAR wasn't park-adjusted.  But as it turns out, they do base WAR on park-adjusted wRAA.  I don't think B-R does, though.