Author Topic: Plan "B"  (Read 130892 times)

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Offline DCFan

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Re: Plan "B"
« Reply #2425 on: January 24, 2009, 03:23:13 pm »
I just have to ask.

just how much better exactly, do you expect Dunn to make this team?

You have to start with the premise that 75% of the current Nats roster wouldn't even make the squads of most of the other MLB teams. So if you can accept that, it's a matter of improving player by player - a process that involves many years as no one can magically restock their team in one offseason.

Is Dunn better than the current Nats starter that he'd be replacing? I don't think there's any question that he is and he'd be leaps and bounds better.  And after adding Dunn you move onto the next roster spot that needs improvement (and you don't have to look far).

How many wins would Dunn add?  Who knows but he's one player closer to making the Nats a contender.  That is what everyone ultimately wants to see?  Or is that too big an assumption for this crowd, many of whom are content to field what is basically the same team as last year and expect radically different results.

Offline KnorrForYourMoney

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Re: Plan "B"
« Reply #2426 on: January 24, 2009, 03:23:52 pm »
You have to start with the premise that 75% of the current Nats roster wouldn't even make the squads of most of the other MLB teams.
:roll: I've never agreed with that.

Offline DCFan

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Re: Plan "B"
« Reply #2427 on: January 24, 2009, 03:27:34 pm »
:roll: I've never agreed with that.

That's fine, I never thought you were that bright to begin with.  :spaz:

Offline sportsfan882

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Re: Plan "B"
« Reply #2428 on: January 24, 2009, 03:36:27 pm »
The Tigres defeated the Gigantes yesterday 2-1 to take a strangle-hold of the best-of-9 series with a lead of 4 games to 0. Game 5 is on Sunday.

Jesus Flores went 1/3 with a 2-out RBI Single.

Anderson Hernandez went 2/3 with an RBI Single.

Belliard went 1/3 with a K.

Former-Nat Ramon Ortiz picked up the victory going 5.1 innings while only allowing 1 run.

Offline KnorrForYourMoney

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Re: Plan "B"
« Reply #2429 on: January 24, 2009, 03:38:13 pm »
That's fine, I never thought you were that bright to begin with.  :spaz:
LOL, is it ever possible for you to disagree with someone without being childish?

MrMadison

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Re: Plan "B"
« Reply #2430 on: January 24, 2009, 04:59:03 pm »
You have to start with the premise that 75% of the current Nats roster wouldn't even make the squads of most of the other MLB teams. So if you can accept that, it's a matter of improving player by player - a process that involves many years as no one can magically restock their team in one offseason.

Is Dunn better than the current Nats starter that he'd be replacing? I don't think there's any question that he is and he'd be leaps and bounds better.  And after adding Dunn you move onto the next roster spot that needs improvement (and you don't have to look far).

How many wins would Dunn add?  Who knows but he's one player closer to making the Nats a contender.  That is what everyone ultimately wants to see?  Or is that too big an assumption for this crowd, many of whom are content to field what is basically the same team as last year and expect radically different results.

so basically you think the team needs a complete Free Agent overhaul from top to bottom, yes?

i.e. not just sign Dunn/Hudson and plug them into the current team. but to sign players to replace nearly everyone who would currently be considered a starter.

or am I being too drastic in my analysis of your stated opinion here?

oh, and I'll safely say that your "75% of the current roster wouldn't make any other team" line is pure unadulterated crap, and you know it, and you only spouted it to start another set of arguments.  :icon_mrgreen:

MrMadison

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Re: Plan "B"
« Reply #2431 on: January 24, 2009, 05:00:48 pm »
LOL, is it ever possible for you to disagree with someone without being childish?

no, it isn't.  he's the classic definition of a forum troll. but I'm sure you've realized this by now.

he loves the argument itself more than the end results.

Offline KnorrForYourMoney

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Re: Plan "B"
« Reply #2432 on: January 24, 2009, 05:18:22 pm »
Yeah, I've seen him do it at BPG.  I thought maybe he wanted to change here so he wouldn't have to deal with the same tired bickering; hence, why he left that place in the first place.

But nope, he's content to start up the ad hominem again.  Countdown until he gets tired of us dishing it back to him, takes his lunchpail, and leaves again.

Anyway, I would suppose that he's never seen the San Diego Padres' roster if the believes that 75% crapola.

Offline houston-nat

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Re: Plan "B"
« Reply #2433 on: January 24, 2009, 05:38:31 pm »
You have to start with the premise that 75% of the current Nats roster wouldn't even make the squads of most of the other MLB teams.
Guzman, Zimmerman, a healthy Nick Johnson, Scott Olsen and John Lannan would be starting on most other MLB teams. Ronnie Belliard, Lastings Milledge, Saul Rivera and Josh Willingham, and maybe Jesus Flores and Steven Shell, would be regulars or bench players, and I have to think that Elijah Dukes and Joel Hanrahan would be on the average 25-man. That's over 50% (13), leaving (by my sketchy memory) Balester, Cabrera, Hernandez, Casto, Hinckley, M. Estrada, Mock, Gonzalez, Pena, Kearns and I forget who all else.

Offline KnorrForYourMoney

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Re: Plan "B"
« Reply #2434 on: January 24, 2009, 05:44:48 pm »
Uhhh, Elijah and Willingham would most certainly start on nearly any team.

Re: Plan "B"
« Reply #2435 on: January 24, 2009, 05:49:21 pm »
To answer NOTLD: I think Dunn really does make our team that much more watchable, at least in my mind.  Last year's team was painful to watch.  The 2007 team, while somewhat devoid of long-term pieces to the club, was rather exciting and had a lot of interesting and worthwhile games.  They didn't have the lifeless feel of the 2008 squad.

So imagine something a little better than the 2007 team, except you have: A) a big-bopping slugger who's a threat to hit one out of the park any time he steps up to the plate (this is mostly superficial, but you have to admit it makes things more interesting), B) a team that's mostly competitive yet filled with a lot of youngsters who might be around for the long haul.

To me, that's a really intriguing prospect.  Seeing Zimmermann, Balester, Mock, etc. is already exciting enough, but it's a great bonus if they're part of a team that doesn't suck rocks.

I don't take satisfaction in a last place team or as some around here call it "settling." 2006 was a perfect example. We had the Princess go 40/40 that year. He added "excitement" and made this team "watchable", but at the end of the season, that really didn't matter. We still naged and whined about having a last place team...which is going to happen again at the end of the 09' season if we are in last place, Dunn or no Dunn.

I really think people are putting too much exaggeration on the watchability factor. Everyone on this board knows they will be tuning in via TV, radio, MLB.com, or WNFF Gameday threads. The self-gratification excuse of "watchability" is a poor gameplan for building any sort of team, especially if your dealing in secondhand guys with short term contracts. There is really no point to it, so why do it?

So basically, what it is comparable to is it would like buying a brand new red Corvette, but the corvette has no speed so what's the point? Just to look cool?

MrMadison

  • Guest
Re: Plan "B"
« Reply #2436 on: January 24, 2009, 05:54:13 pm »
well..Prince doesn't like too much speed in his red corvettes... *shrug*


Re: Plan "B"
« Reply #2437 on: January 24, 2009, 05:55:14 pm »
well..Prince doesn't like too much speed in his red corvettes... *shrug*



:rofl: Can Prince hit a curveball?

Offline UpperDec

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Re: Plan "B"
« Reply #2438 on: January 24, 2009, 06:00:09 pm »
A better analysis in my opinion is how many players on the Nats would be starting on a PLAYOFF team as that is ultimately the desire.  Based on last years results, perhaps 2 of the 8 regular starters (Zimmerman and Guzman), and probably 1 maybe 2 starting pitchers (Lannan/Olsen) and maybe a pitcher or 2 out of the bullpen.  Personally, I hope there is growth from some of the young guys and hopefully 50% of those guys turn into regulars on a playoff team but that would still leave us short of what we desire.  I do believe in incremental improvement and teams rarely go from 60 to 95 wins (Tampa Bay is the exception).

My only point really is we don't want guys on our team just good enough to start on an average or poor team, they need to be good enough to start on a team that will win 90 games.

Offline KnorrForYourMoney

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Re: Plan "B"
« Reply #2439 on: January 24, 2009, 06:07:46 pm »
I certainly didn't pay as much attention to the Nats last year as I did in '07.  I didn't really want to miss games that year, whereas by the end of last season, I couldn't be bothered to seek them out almost half the time.

But this isn't about any of us.  You're obscuring the point.  This is about the fanbase at large.

There's a reason why the Nats set a low for attendance in a new (modern) ballpark last year.
I really think people are putting too much exaggeration on the watchability factor. Everyone on this board knows they will be tuning in via TV, radio, MLB.com, or WNFF Gameday threads. The self-gratification excuse of "watchability" is a poor gameplan for building any sort of team, especially if your dealing in secondhand guys with short term contracts. There is really no point to it, so why do it?
:doh: Yes, Dunn is really going to block all of those ML-ready 1B and outfielders we have who are certain to be stars.  There's...uhh...uhh...

Ever heard of trades?

Building a team for the long haul and filling a hole in the short-term are not mutually exclusive.

Re: Plan "B"
« Reply #2440 on: January 24, 2009, 06:18:50 pm »
I certainly didn't pay as much attention to the Nats last year as I did in '07.  I didn't really want to miss games that year, whereas by the end of last season, I couldn't be bothered to seek them out almost half the time.

I'm sorry to hear that.

Quote
But this isn't about any of us.  You're obscuring the point.  This is about the fanbase at large.

So what about it? The fan base isn't going to "come back" for a last place team that loses 102 games or for a last place team that loses 97 games (for argument's sake, the five games that Dunn will apparently win by his mere presence). It is going to take more than an Adam Dunn (which we have already figured out) and again, I've never heard of someone stampeding to a game looking to watch "Adam Dunn." He isn't going to be the huge draw you think he is. This is my opinion, of course, but it just sounds like more "sign him because we have to sign anyone" or "spend just to spend" talk.

Quote
:doh: Yes, Dunn is really going to block all of those ML-ready 1B and outfielders we have who are certain to be stars.  There's...uhh...uhh...

Umm, okay. You bring this up why?

Quote
Ever heard of trades?

Yeah, I have. Trading is that thing teams that actually have something to give away do. Tell me again who the Nats have that is going to suddenly change the fortunes of this team by trading them?


Offline PANatsFan

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Re: Plan "B"
« Reply #2441 on: January 24, 2009, 06:40:20 pm »

Former-Nat Ramon Ortiz picked up the victory going 5.1 innings while only allowing 1 run.

BRING HIM BACK :lol:

Offline DCFan

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Re: Plan "B"
« Reply #2442 on: January 24, 2009, 07:05:02 pm »
or am I being too drastic in my analysis of your stated opinion here?

It's your debating style (rather pathetic I might add), to exaggerate the other persons position so far to the extreme. But if you think that works for you then run with it!  :rofl:

Quote
oh, and I'll safely say that your "75% of the current roster wouldn't make any other team" line is pure unadulterated crap, and you know it, and you only spouted it to start another set of arguments.  :icon_mrgreen:

Can't even quote correctly either I might add.  Copy and paste is pretty easy. I'll bet even ACTAvation Energy has it mastered.  :rofl:

Offline DCFan

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Re: Plan "B"
« Reply #2443 on: January 24, 2009, 07:07:59 pm »
Yeah, I've seen him do it at BPG.  I thought maybe he wanted to change here so he wouldn't have to deal with the same tired bickering; hence, why he left that place in the first place.

But nope, he's content to start up the ad hominem again.  Countdown until he gets tired of us dishing it back to him, takes his lunchpail, and leaves again.

Anyway, I would suppose that he's never seen the San Diego Padres' roster if the believes that 75% crapola.

"Us dishing it back"?  If you have to rally the troops to protect you against mean old DCFan, you need to grow a pair.  :woop:

Re: Plan "B"
« Reply #2444 on: January 24, 2009, 07:09:38 pm »
"Us dishing it back"?  If you have to rally the troops to protect you against mean old DCFan, you need to grow a pair.  :woop:

At least we don't hide behind cute little smiley faces, numbnuts.

Offline DCFan

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Re: Plan "B"
« Reply #2445 on: January 24, 2009, 07:11:36 pm »
A better analysis in my opinion is how many players on the Nats would be starting on a PLAYOFF team as that is ultimately the desire.  Based on last years results, perhaps 2 of the 8 regular starters (Zimmerman and Guzman), and probably 1 maybe 2 starting pitchers (Lannan/Olsen) and maybe a pitcher or 2 out of the bullpen.

Bang on UpperDec. The rest of these guys are just place holders until we get some MLB quality ballplayers and the only way to do that is thru the draft, free agency and trades. Two out of three results in last place teams.

Offline DCFan

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Re: Plan "B"
« Reply #2446 on: January 24, 2009, 07:13:03 pm »
I certainly didn't pay as much attention to the Nats last year as I did in '07.  I didn't really want to miss games that year, whereas by the end of last season, I couldn't be bothered to seek them out almost half the time.

But this isn't about any of us.  You're obscuring the point.  This is about the fanbase at large.

There's a reason why the Nats set a low for attendance in a new (modern) ballpark last year. :doh: Yes, Dunn is really going to block all of those ML-ready 1B and outfielders we have who are certain to be stars.  There's...uhh...uhh...

Ever heard of trades?

Building a team for the long haul and filling a hole in the short-term are not mutually exclusive.

Well said.

Offline DCFan

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Re: Plan "B"
« Reply #2447 on: January 24, 2009, 07:16:55 pm »
Uhhh, Elijah and Willingham would most certainly start on nearly any team.

Nobody wants Dukes because he's a freakin head case! If he was the 2nd coming of Willy Mays teams would try and accommodate him but he isn't so he was traded to the only team desperate enough - us!  :hang:

Re: Plan "B"
« Reply #2448 on: January 24, 2009, 07:21:13 pm »
Nobody wants Dukes because he's a freakin head case! If he was the 2nd coming of Willy Mays teams would try and accommodate him but he isn't so he was traded to the only team desperate enough - us!  :hang:

By that sad and illogical logic, that means since no other team is coughing up the dough for Adam Dunn and giving him what he asks, then that must mean he actually really sucks. :roll:

MrMadison

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Re: Plan "B"
« Reply #2449 on: January 24, 2009, 07:25:18 pm »
It's your debating style (rather pathetic I might add), to exaggerate the other persons position so far to the extreme.


I'm pretty sure that your opinion of my "debating style" is largely irrelevant, due to the fact that I'm not actually "debating" anything at this juncture. *shrug*

as I said before, I'm trying to gauge the popular opinion in regards to where the team stands and exactly how much improvement is expected from signing free agents *this offseason*.

I'm not passing any judgement as to whose opinion is correct and whose is not at this point.