Author Topic: Washington/Baltimore Owners  (Read 537 times)

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Offline Senatorswin

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Washington/Baltimore Owners
« Topic Start: March 27, 2024, 06:08:04 PM »
With all that's going on with the owners of the Nats, Commanders, Wizards/Caps and Orioles I was thinking maybe a thread of owner issues might be the way to go for all of them. If this isn't the right place for it please move.

Boz has an article in the post on this subject:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2024/03/26/peter-angelos-daniel-snyder-orioles-commanders/

Offline Senatorswin

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Re: Washington/Baltimore Owners
« Reply #1: March 27, 2024, 06:45:32 PM »
Looks like Ted won't be moving to Virginia aftercall. Virginia said we don't want you so Chinatown it is.

Offline IanRubbish

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Re: Washington/Baltimore Owners
« Reply #2: March 27, 2024, 09:27:01 PM »
Mini Me is not a "C" as Boz claims, if Snyder's an F, Mini Me's a D or D-.

Offline Senatorswin

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Re: Washington/Baltimore Owners
« Reply #3: March 27, 2024, 10:37:59 PM »
Below is my rating in order best to worst of the owners of the Baltimore and Washington sports teams:

1)   Abe Pollin – Bullets – 1964 – 2009. He won a NBA Title. He was in the finals a few times between Baltimore and Washington. He brought basketball to the Washington area. More than that, he was offered a much sweeter deal to move back to Baltimore but loved DC and built an arena in Chinatown and revitalized the whole area.

2)   Abe Pollin – Capitals – 1974 – 1998. Started a Washington hockey team for the first time. See above for other contributions to DC, the city he loved.

3)   Jerold Hoffberger – Orioles 1965 – 1979. Tickets were cheap and best run organization in all of sports at the time.

4)   Jack Kent Cooke – Redskins 1980 – 1996. Let the football people make the decisions which resulted in 4 Super Bowl Appearances with 3 wins.

5)   Edward Bennet Williams – Redskins 1969 – 1974. Hired Vince Lombardi and George Allen. First time Redskins won in many years. I Super Bowl appearance.

6)   Ted Lerner – Nationals 2006 – 2017. Had to rebuild a team that was raped by MLB and won consistently from 2012 – 2017.

7)   Clark Griffith – Senators 1920 – 1955. Won a world Series in 1924 and pennant in 1933.

8)   Ted Leonsis – Capitals – 1999 – present. Won the Stanley Cup 2018. Kept the Great8 in DC his whole career. Tried to move the Capitals to Virginia but failed.

9)   Edward Bennet Williams Orioles 1980 – 1988 – Had some exciting teams in the early 80’s. Tickets were still cheap. Originally wanted to move the Orioles to Washington but couldn’t when Baltimore built him Camden Yards.


10)   Elwood Richard Quesada – Senators 1961 – 1962. Not bad or good, was just there.

11)   James Johnston and James Lemon – Senators 1963 – 1967. Sold to Bob Short otherwise just there.

12)   Mark Lerner – Nationals – 2018 – Present. Hasn’t won but isn’t as bad as the ones behind him.

13)   Ted Leonsis – Wizards – 2010 – present. – Hasn’t won anything. Tried to move to Virginia and abandon Chinatown which Abe Pollin made a destination in DC.

14)   John Angelos – Orioles 2020 – 2023. First of the despicable 6. Did finally make progress in MASN settlement but had to be dragged the whole way.

15)   Peter Angelos – Orioles 1993 – 2020. Second despicable. Did everything he could to keep Washington from getting a team. Wouldn’t pay Nationals what they were due in MASN.

16)   George Preston Marshall – despicable 3. Redskins 1937 – 1969. Lost horribly. Would have been above the Angelos family but he really was a prejudiced human being.

17)   Dan Snyder – 1999 – 2023 – despicable 4. Terrible in many ways. Made the Redskins/Commanders the laughing stock of the league. He’s above the two below him because he didn’t move the team out of DC area.

18)   Bob Short – Senators – 1969 – 1971. – Despicable 5. Stinks. Terrible owner. Made baseball decisions. Moved the team to Texas. He should never of been allowed to buy the Senators. Didn’t have the money.

19)   Calvin Griffith – Senators 1955 – 1960. Despicable 6. Moved the Senators to Minnesota. Terrible person. Drank too much and was prejudiced

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Washington/Baltimore Owners
« Reply #4: March 28, 2024, 07:48:48 AM »
Does any city have as few great owners and as many just absolute pieces of crap?

Offline IanRubbish

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Re: Washington/Baltimore Owners
« Reply #5: March 29, 2024, 02:22:18 AM »
For the first time in Nats history, I like the Orioles owner better than ours.

Offline Senatorswin

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Re: Washington/Baltimore Owners
« Reply #6: March 29, 2024, 09:42:34 AM »
For the first time in Nats history, I like the Orioles owner better than ours.

Angelos trying so hard to keep baseball out of DC and then not paying the Nats what he was supposed to for TV made it easy to dislike the O's. Now if Rubenstein gets rid of MASN I might even now have an American league and National league team to root for. It would be a tough transition though.

The jury is still out but so far it seems Ted Lerner might be better than his son Mark as an owner.

Offline imref

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Re: Washington/Baltimore Owners
« Reply #7: March 29, 2024, 10:17:39 AM »
I'm holding off judgement of Rubenstein until we see what happens at MASN, but so far I like how open and engaged he is with the fans.

Offline IanRubbish

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Re: Washington/Baltimore Owners
« Reply #8: March 29, 2024, 12:31:15 PM »
I'm holding off judgement of Rubenstein until we see what happens at MASN, but so far I like how open and engaged he is with the fans.

Unlike Angelos, who was an old school Baltimore ambulance chaser, Rubenstein made his money in DC, he doesn't have the Bittermore attitude towards Washington Angelos had, and many O's fans still have. 

I will never be an O's fan, but I have huge respect for how Alexandria native Mike Elias has drafted and developed talent.  That roster if full of people he drafted, think I counted five just among their rotation and OD starting nine.   The gap between him and Rizzo is enormous.  Rizzo would be long gone in any other org that values winning over giving defensive interviews.

Offline welch

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Re: Washington/Baltimore Owners
« Reply #9: March 29, 2024, 01:13:43 PM »
Clark Griffith, "The Old Fox", has to be the greatest of them all. He was a star pitcher, breaking into the majors in 1891, and organizing the equivalent of the NL players union. As a players leader, he persuaded NL players to jump to the new American League, making him, more than anyone else, founder of the AL. He bought a part ownership of the Washington baseball team in 1911, and got full control after the 1919 season. Griff would never have moved the Nats, as his wife, Addy, insisted against step-son Calvin in 1960. As time went on, Griffith, like Connie Mack, no longer made enough money just from the ball team to compete with teams that could invest in a minor league system and large scouting staffs.

To my mind, Griffith's defect was that he was afraid to sign black ballplayers. Several Negro League stars played part-time in The District, at Griffith's own stadium, but Griff caved to pressure from other owners to hold the color line. He and Calvin squiggled around the line by signing black Cuban ballplayers, like Carlos Paula, in 1954: "He's not a Negro...he's Cuban!", they said. 

See the SABR bio, https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/Clark-Griffith/

Offline Senatorswin

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Re: Washington/Baltimore Owners
« Reply #10: March 29, 2024, 10:15:52 PM »
Unlike Angelos, who was an old school Baltimore ambulance chaser, Rubenstein made his money in DC, he doesn't have the Bittermore attitude towards Washington Angelos had, and many O's fans still have. 

I will never be an O's fan, but I have huge respect for how Alexandria native Mike Elias has drafted and developed talent.  That roster if full of people he drafted, think I counted five just among their rotation and OD starting nine.   The gap between him and Rizzo is enormous.  Rizzo would be long gone in any other org that values winning over giving defensive interviews.

I didn't know Elias was from Alexandria. Turns out he graduated from Thomas Jefferson. He was involved in building the Astros into a contender. He is as good as they get as a GM.
It would be fun to be a O's fan and a Nats fan but I don't know if I can root for Baltimore.

Offline IanRubbish

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Re: Washington/Baltimore Owners
« Reply #11: March 31, 2024, 09:41:11 PM »
Some of this is definitely on DC fans.  Can't think of another top 10 market where the owner and GM decide to tank for 5+ seasons...again, and people are ok with it.  The Facebook Nats groups were almost congratulating them.   In NY, LA, Philly, Boston, Chicago, even San Francisco, they'd be dead.

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Washington/Baltimore Owners
« Reply #12: March 31, 2024, 09:44:15 PM »
Some of this is definitely on DC fans.  Can't think of another top 10 market where the owner and GM decide to tank for 5+ seasons...again, and people are ok with it.  The Facebook Nats groups were almost congratulating them.   In NY, LA, Philly, Boston, Chicago, even San Francisco, they'd be dead.

We stop caring. Look at the ratings and the attendance

Offline Slateman

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Re: Washington/Baltimore Owners
« Reply #13: March 31, 2024, 10:00:07 PM »
Some of this is definitely on DC fans.  Can't think of another top 10 market where the owner and GM decide to tank for 5+ seasons...again, and people are ok with it.  The Facebook Nats groups were almost congratulating them.   In NY, LA, Philly, Boston, Chicago, even San Francisco, they'd be dead.
Philly
I mean, thats basically what the Phillies did from 2013 to 2018. Red Sox are basically in year 3 of that. The Astros were cellar dwellers from 2009 through the 2014 season. And, outside of a fluke 107 win season, the Giants have been medicore since 2017.

Really its just the Dodgers and Yankees that dont. Its pretty obvious that most ownership groups are more interested in revenue and real estate developments.

Offline PowerBoater69

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Re: Washington/Baltimore Owners
« Reply #14: March 31, 2024, 10:13:08 PM »
Some of this is definitely on DC fans.  Can't think of another top 10 market where the owner and GM decide to tank for 5+ seasons...again, and people are ok with it.  The Facebook Nats groups were almost congratulating them.   In NY, LA, Philly, Boston, Chicago, even San Francisco, they'd be dead.

Nats fans prefer their teams to be built the right way.

Offline IanRubbish

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Re: Washington/Baltimore Owners
« Reply #15: March 31, 2024, 10:36:22 PM »
Nats fans prefer their teams to be built the right way.

Yes, but that does not include having Mike Rizzo draft and develop players.  He'd be a franchise trivia question in any other large market.  And Mini Me would be more hated than Snyder was in DC if he owned in NY/Chicago/SF/Boston/Philly etc.

Offline Senatorswin

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Re: Washington/Baltimore Owners
« Reply #16: March 31, 2024, 11:13:58 PM »
Yes, but that does not include having Mike Rizzo draft and develop players.  He'd be a franchise trivia question in any other large market.  And Mini Me would be more hated than Snyder was in DC if he owned in NY/Chicago/SF/Boston/Philly etc.


Snyder hit a dislike standard that could never be approached by another human being.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Washington/Baltimore Owners
« Reply #17: April 01, 2024, 10:02:29 AM »
Nats fans prefer their teams to be built the right way.
Yes, but that does not include having Mike Rizzo draft and develop players.  He'd be a franchise trivia question in any other large market.  And Mini Me would be more hated than Snyder was in DC if he owned in NY/Chicago/SF/Boston/Philly etc.
Interesting to compare Rizzo's tenure to Boston.  Theo walked after 2011. Cherington did a salary dump in 2012, then was given enough to buy surrounding FAs to win in 2013, and then was gone I think after 2015. Dombo was given bucks for FAs and the go ahead to strip the farm for the 2018 series, but was gone I think after 2019 or 2020. Then there was Bloom for 3 years and one LCS appearance, with direction to get the budget under control, and now there's Breslow with no authority to spend. 4 GMs, 2 WS, and an LCS appearance (plus a couple of division titles) over Rizzo's tenure.

Offline Senatorswin

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Re: Washington/Baltimore Owners
« Reply #18: April 01, 2024, 11:37:24 AM »
Interesting to compare Rizzo's tenure to Boston.  Theo walked after 2011. Cherington did a salary dump in 2012, then was given enough to buy surrounding FAs to win in 2013, and then was gone I think after 2015. Dombo was given bucks for FAs and the go ahead to strip the farm for the 2018 series, but was gone I think after 2019 or 2020. Then there was Bloom for 3 years and one LCS appearance, with direction to get the budget under control, and now there's Breslow with no authority to spend. 4 GMs, 2 WS, and an LCS appearance (plus a couple of division titles) over Rizzo's tenure.

Really not a fair comparison. The Red Sox are the third most valuable franchise in baseball. They got about 800,000 more in attendance than the Nationals last year. They would get about $36 million more than the Nationals in local TV rights each year, that is if the Nationals actually received the money they were owed.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Washington/Baltimore Owners
« Reply #19: April 01, 2024, 12:34:36 PM »
Really not a fair comparison. The Red Sox are the third most valuable franchise in baseball. They got about 800,000 more in attendance than the Nationals last year. They would get about $36 million more than the Nationals in local TV rights each year, that is if the Nationals actually received the money they were owed.
sure, they had more resources, although the Nats had a very high payroll in the late teens as well as one of the wealthier ownership groups at the time. I don't think it's entirely a resource issue. They pretty much consistently had a more productive development system for position players (they both stunk at pitching). My  main point is that they were willing to can multiple GMs when they weren't working, even ones with some success. The Nats seem to have a very long leash for Rizzo.

Offline welch

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Re: Washington/Baltimore Owners
« Reply #20: April 01, 2024, 12:57:27 PM »
Some of this is definitely on DC fans.  Can't think of another top 10 market where the owner and GM decide to tank for 5+ seasons...again, and people are ok with it.  The Facebook Nats groups were almost congratulating them.   In NY, LA, Philly, Boston, Chicago, even San Francisco, they'd be dead.

Perhaps the result of losing the Old Senators in 1960 and the New Senators in 1971, and then missing out on baseball for 30 years. For younger fans, the Griffith-Nats fell behind as other teams were bought by wealthy owners -- like the Browns to the Hoffbergers. The New (Expansion) Senators started with poor owners and a lousy roster and no farm system. Fans had just learned to hope in the 1960 season, and never got much chance to hope for with the new team.

That was a fifteen-year rebuild in the 1940s and 1950s, and another ten years through 1971. Continuous losing and then no baseball at all. Fans learn patience.

Here in New York, the Yankees have always had money.

Offline Natsinpwc

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Re: Washington/Baltimore Owners
« Reply #21: April 01, 2024, 01:22:39 PM »
Perhaps the result of losing the Old Senators in 1960 and the New Senators in 1971, and then missing out on baseball for 30 years. For younger fans, the Griffith-Nats fell behind as other teams were bought by wealthy owners -- like the Browns to the Hoffbergers. The New (Expansion) Senators started with poor owners and a lousy roster and no farm system. Fans had just learned to hope in the 1960 season, and never got much chance to hope for with the new team.

That was a fifteen-year rebuild in the 1940s and 1950s, and another ten years through 1971. Continuous losing and then no baseball at all. Fans learn patience.

Here in New York, the Yankees have always had money.
Started reading this book. 

https://www.nebraskapress.unl.edu/nebraska/9780803220607/

Offline IanRubbish

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Re: Washington/Baltimore Owners
« Reply #22: April 01, 2024, 01:50:27 PM »
That was a fifteen-year rebuild in the 1940s and 1950s, and another ten years through 1971. Continuous losing and then no baseball at all. Fans learn patience.

Unfortunately that patience is excessive.  But in addition to tolerant fans, race has probably played a bigger role than in other cities.  I doubt Griffith was the only racist MLB owner in 1960, but DC was the rare MLB city that was majority Black.  New York and Chicago were still over 75% White at the time.  Even Baltimore was still about 65% White then. He loved the Twin Cities because they were as White as you could get back then.   He moved from a metro region that was nearly 3 million people in 1950, to one that had barely 1 million people then because of his racist attitude.

Another issue is the lack of working class fans.  I moved to DC out of college in the early 90s, having grown up with New York and Boston sports.  The number of Yankees, Mets, Red Sox, Jets or Giants fans who had nothing better do then but call Mike and the Mad Dog or WEEI and complain about their teams was off the charts.  You'd also meet them at bars, and they would lose their minds with every loss.  DC never really had that, the Redskins and Bullets fans were sitting in cubicle farms in Crystal City or Tyson's Corner, ready to get back to work Monday. 

Living now in the Bay Area, and as a Niner fan, I think the demographics are similar to the DC area, but the attitudes are not.  We had a serious run of dysfunction in the mid-2010s with our owners, the Yorks, who fired the most successful coach the team had since Seifert and went to three conference championships and a Super Bowl.  Fans and the media gave Jed York all kinds of grief for the dysfunctional decision making and he responded by bringing in a GM and coach who work well together and are still here.  But no one was falling for any hype when they arrived the way DC did for Steve Spurrier, the Joe Gibbs return, or any of Snyder's "win the offseason" moves that at least for the first few years got the Redskins fans and DC sports media into unjustified excitement.  And it wasn't just a Snyder thing.  I remember the hype around Heath Shuler, it made no sense to me because he hadn't done anything but everyone was ready to anoint him the next Jurgensen or Theismann before he took a snap.  I've never seen Niner fans get too over the top about hyped up draft picks or free agent signings.  You have to do something to win over Niner fans, I feel in DC you can get a lot further with saying something and holding a press conference before any results have been achieved.




Offline Five Banners

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Re: Washington/Baltimore Owners
« Reply #23: April 01, 2024, 02:51:28 PM »
I've never seen Niner fans get too over the top about hyped up draft picks or free agent signings.  You have to do something to win over Niner fans, I feel in DC you can get a lot further with saying something and holding a press conference before any results have been achieved.


Didn’t know that Niners fans moved as a monolith; wonder if that carried over to Sharks fans or Warriors fans in the Mullin days as far as hoping the next acquisition was the one that would put them over the top.

Maybe that was cultivated when their team had the benefit when they started their run of success of being in a division with rarely any serious competition as follow as Super Bowl contenders in the division, while the NFC East will be busy beating other team into a pulp before the playoffs.

As far as the expectation aspect, one might venture to conclude that “everyone“ was hardly on board with Shuler delivering everything, which was why the Heath versus Gus thing broke out. Plus, locally there’s the element of media that aren’t boosting the local teams rather than leveraging for controversy and teardown, something that other city’s Sports desks may not prefer or see as advantageous, but may prefer a nice comfortable echo chamber all behind the team.

That to me has been a defining difference in sports markets. Just look at Boswell’s recent column, where he casts the Orioles as local, something that isn’t being reciprocated in the Baltimore Sun.

Offline welch

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Re: Washington/Baltimore Owners
« Reply #24: April 01, 2024, 03:39:35 PM »
Washington was a baseball town until Bob Shorted the Expansion Nats to Texas. We had been stunned when Calvin Griffith betrayed Clark's memory and Addy for that move to Minneapolis, but the Skins were worse, other than 1969, until wiley George Allen took over in 1971. The teams of Toot (Otto Graham's nickname) always went 6 - 8, while Sonny threw hundreds of completions a season, and thousands of yards, to Mitchell, Taylor, and Smith. When Short announced he was taking the Senators, Allen announced that his Redskins would go to the playoffs to avenge the insult to the Nation's Capital. Everyone thought he was crazy, but the Skins went 9 - 4 - 1 and were the wildcard team.

With that, Washington became 200% a Redskin team. People cared about even the third-string QB -- yes, I remember Harry Theofiledes, plus second stringers like Dick Shiner. "I'm a Redskin fan and I like..." However, the Post's sports coverage was always gentle and supportive, other than Shirley Povich's long, long battle against George Preston Marshall's dishonesty and racism.

I have lived in NYC for more than fifty years, following sports in the Times, the Daily News, Newsday for a time, and sometimes I'd read the NY Post about 40 years ago. The Daily News and the NY Post have the worst sports coverage I've ever read. It has always been gossip journalism and personal interest stories. Dick Young, at the request of the Whitney Payson family, drove Tom Seaver out of town; Seaver had asked for a raise or that the Mets get some hitters -- they had just dumped Rusty Staub This offended the Whitney Paysons, so they had Young write that Seaver wanted a raise because Nancy Seaver was jealous of the jewlery that Nolan Ryan's wife had from Ryan's salary.

Washington does not do that sort of thing, and it's OK.

I don't know if DC ever had the sort of drunken college-boy sports talk like Mike and the Mad Dog...the cal from Billy in Ronkonkoma that begins, "Dog!! Why don't the Mets trade [names five players] to Boston for [names Freddie Lynn and Jim Rice plus somebody else]?" That doesn't indicate less interest. Maybe fewer nuts with time on their hands.