Author Topic: Baltimore Key bridge collapses  (Read 367 times)

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Offline imref

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Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Baltimore Key bridge collapses
« Reply #1: March 26, 2024, 07:22:06 AM »
It's just gone.

They are saying a construction project kept traffic down. Just horrific.

Offline English Natsie

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Re: Baltimore Key bridge collapses
« Reply #2: March 26, 2024, 07:33:37 AM »
A day to set aside our sporting rivalry, and offer our thoughts and hopes to the people of Baltimore.

Offline Natsinpwc

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Re: Baltimore Key bridge collapses
« Reply #3: March 26, 2024, 07:48:48 AM »
That’s just unbelievable.  Saw the video.  Hope that they can find some more survivor.  Clear weather so not sure why the ship would hit it?  Not an engineer but is that a design flaw or wear and tear that would cause the whole bridge to collapse?

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Baltimore Key bridge collapses
« Reply #4: March 26, 2024, 08:04:55 AM »
That’s just unbelievable.  Saw the video.  Hope that they can find some more survivor.  Clear weather so not sure why the ship would hit it?  Not an engineer but is that a design flaw or wear and tear that would cause the whole bridge to collapse?
the cnn article says that the lights on the ship were observed as flickering while it diverted off course a couple of minutes (1:24 AM) before it struck the support at 1:26 AM.  To me, that suggest a power loss and loss of steering. As for the support and a flaw in the bridge, this sort of thing has happened before, so maybe there's no flaw. Joe Scarborough brought up an incident in Tampa Bay around 1980 with a similar result.

It'll be interesting to see if there's now a more inherently safer design. 

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Baltimore Key bridge collapses
« Reply #5: March 26, 2024, 08:17:03 AM »
the cnn article says that the lights on the ship were observed as flickering while it diverted off course a couple of minutes (1:24 AM) before it struck the support at 1:26 AM.  To me, that suggest a power loss and loss of steering. As for the support and a flaw in the bridge, this sort of thing has happened before, so maybe there's no flaw. Joe Scarborough brought up an incident in Tampa Bay around 1980 with a similar result.

It'll be interesting to see if there's now a more inherently safer design. 

I'm not sure how you design around a container ship hitting a pillar. I've seen some bridges with either extra pillars in front of the structural pillars or cladding to deflect a ship, but a fully loaded container ship has a lot of momentum.

Offline Natsinpwc

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Re: Baltimore Key bridge collapses
« Reply #6: March 26, 2024, 08:37:04 AM »
I guess I was assuming that if a ship hit the bridge only one section of the bridge would collapse and not the whole thing.  Of course no bridge now for a long while but until they clean the debris it will impact shipping at one of the most busiest ports. 

Offline nfotiu

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Re: Baltimore Key bridge collapses
« Reply #7: March 26, 2024, 08:41:03 AM »
the cnn article says that the lights on the ship were observed as flickering while it diverted off course a couple of minutes (1:24 AM) before it struck the support at 1:26 AM.  To me, that suggest a power loss and loss of steering. As for the support and a flaw in the bridge, this sort of thing has happened before, so maybe there's no flaw. Joe Scarborough brought up an incident in Tampa Bay around 1980 with a similar result.

It'll be interesting to see if there's now a more inherently safer design. 

https://twitter.com/Naeem097/status/1772591528784908564

That video shows the power going completely out a couple times.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Baltimore Key bridge collapses
« Reply #8: March 26, 2024, 09:21:54 AM »
I'm not sure how you design around a container ship hitting a pillar. I've seen some bridges with either extra pillars in front of the structural pillars or cladding to deflect a ship, but a fully loaded container ship has a lot of momentum.
agreed. I think the only thing that  might halt a ship that size would be grounding it before it hits the pillar, and if you were to build out a protective structure to do that, it would constrict the channel. maybe some sort of crumple zone to dissipate the energy. Multiple tugboats? I'm not an engineer.

It's an arched truss bridge that's 1.6 miles long. When built, it was one of the longest of that style. from the collapse, it looks like the whole structure supported the entire length, so that the collapse of the structure on one side of the untouched support pillar led to the collapse on the opposite side of that support.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Baltimore Key bridge collapses
« Reply #9: March 26, 2024, 09:23:27 AM »
https://twitter.com/Naeem097/status/1772591528784908564

That video shows the power going completely out a couple times.
there's probably backup systems that failed, too. A ship cannot lose its steering.

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Baltimore Key bridge collapses
« Reply #10: March 26, 2024, 09:31:02 AM »
there's probably backup systems that failed, too. A ship cannot lose its steering.

Whenever we stay in savannah, we in the Hyatt with a riverside room so that the kids can watch the cargo ships passing down the Savannah river. Two things always strike me about container ships- how overloaded they seem and how decrepit they are.

Offline 1995hoo

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Re: Baltimore Key bridge collapses
« Reply #11: March 26, 2024, 10:11:03 AM »
Apparently the original proposal was to build a tunnel there, which would have made a lot of sense for a whole host of reasons (not the least of them being to keep the shipping channel clear), but it was rejected as too expensive. If that was the case in 1971, I can't begin to fathom (pun intended) how much more expensive a tunnel would be nowadays. This isn't going to be a quick fix like the small concrete overpass on I-95 near Philadelphia last year.

(Interestingly, the place they had originally planned a bridge, rather than a tunnel, was for I-95 where the Fort McHenry Tunnel is now. The bridge plan quite rightly failed because of the impact it would have had on the historic site.)

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Baltimore Key bridge collapses
« Reply #12: March 26, 2024, 10:32:12 AM »
Apparently the original proposal was to build a tunnel there, which would have made a lot of sense for a whole host of reasons (not the least of them being to keep the shipping channel clear), but it was rejected as too expensive. If that was the case in 1971, I can't begin to fathom (pun intended) how much more expensive a tunnel would be nowadays. This isn't going to be a quick fix like the small concrete overpass on I-95 near Philadelphia last year.

(Interestingly, the place they had originally planned a bridge, rather than a tunnel, was for I-95 where the Fort McHenry Tunnel is now. The bridge plan quite rightly failed because of the impact it would have had on the historic site.)

I'e always heard that Norfolk has a tunnel so that collapsing a bridge wouldn't trap the fleet in port, so at least where the military is concerned, the will to build tunnels exists. 

The ship is owned by a Hong Kong shell company that owns two other ships. Somehow, I suspect US taxpayers will be on the hook for billions

Offline Natsinpwc

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Re: Baltimore Key bridge collapses
« Reply #13: March 26, 2024, 11:15:08 AM »
The ship is owned by a Hong Kong shell company that owns two other ships. Somehow, I suspect US taxpayers will be on the hook for billions
And let the conspiracies begin. 

Offline imref

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Re: Baltimore Key bridge collapses
« Reply #14: March 26, 2024, 11:25:46 AM »
the reporting this morning was that the ship suffered a complete power loss and radioed the harbor master that they lost control and were likely to collide with bridge. Thankfully this was the middle of the night and not during a heavily trafficked time. I'm sure 95 is a bigger mess than normal right now.  The port was blocked so I assume first priority after search and rescue will be clearing debris to reopen the port (2nd busiest in the US).

CNN's latest update says the ship reported a mayday call and the bridge had been closed before the collision and collapse.

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Baltimore Key bridge collapses
« Reply #15: March 26, 2024, 11:36:33 AM »
And let the conspiracies begin. 

Not a conspiracy, I just don't think they will have the assets or insurance coverage to replace a major bridge and cover the cost of Baltimore harbor being closed while the debris is cleared. 

Offline Natsinpwc

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Re: Baltimore Key bridge collapses
« Reply #16: March 26, 2024, 11:49:02 AM »
Not a conspiracy, I just don't think they will have the assets or insurance coverage to replace a major bridge and cover the cost of Baltimore harbor being closed while the debris is cleared.
There will be all kinds of conspiracies about it being intentional and the Chinese being behind it.  Just wait. 

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Baltimore Key bridge collapses
« Reply #17: March 26, 2024, 11:59:32 AM »
Maybe one lesson learned is that a ship should be escorted by a tug when it operates around a bottlenecking bridge.

Now that I think about it, about a year ago didn't another ship lose power and run aground maybe closer to the Bay Bridge?

Offline Slateman

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Re: Baltimore Key bridge collapses
« Reply #18: March 26, 2024, 01:07:32 PM »
Ship was having power issues. Dropped the anchor to try and change course. Silver lining here is that with construction, the bridge didn't have a lot of people on it.

Maybe one lesson learned is that a ship should be escorted by a tug when it operates around a bottlenecking bridge.

Now that I think about it, about a year ago didn't another ship lose power and run aground maybe closer to the Bay Bridge?

Its a deepwater port. One of the benefits is not needing a tug or special craft.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Baltimore Key bridge collapses
« Reply #19: March 26, 2024, 01:30:59 PM »
Its a deepwater port. One of the benefits is not needing a tug or special craft.
I get that, but I would imagine it's a lot cheaper to have a tug either with the craft or around the Key Bridge and the Chesapeake  Bay Bridge (and probably the 301? bridge further south) than to replace a bridge. It's a real cost benefit calculation, which would include the risk of a tug mishap.

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Baltimore Key bridge collapses
« Reply #20: March 26, 2024, 01:39:39 PM »
I get that, but I would imagine it's a lot cheaper to have a tug either with the craft or around the Key Bridge and the Chesapeake  Bay Bridge (and probably the 301? bridge further south) than to replace a bridge. It's a real cost benefit calculation, which would include the risk of a tug mishap.

The bridge has been there for 50 years without incident. Hopefully the Maryland and the feds bleed maersk dry paying for this

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Baltimore Key bridge collapses
« Reply #21: March 26, 2024, 01:43:38 PM »
The bridge has been there for 50 years without incident. Hopefully the Maryland and the feds bleed maersk dry paying for this
How many billion will it cost to replace?

Most bridges over harbors and bays will not get struck by a ship. The cost of maintaining tugs by all of them on the off chance that one is hit is possibly prohibitive, but I'll guess somebody has calculated it out.

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Baltimore Key bridge collapses
« Reply #22: March 26, 2024, 02:04:32 PM »
How many billion will it cost to replace?

Most bridges over harbors and bays will not get struck by a ship. The cost of maintaining tugs by all of them on the off chance that one is hit is possibly prohibitive, but I'll guess somebody has calculated it out.

How many billions does Munich Re have? If someone other than US tax payers isn't on the hook for this, government has utterly failed

Offline Slateman

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Re: Baltimore Key bridge collapses
« Reply #23: March 26, 2024, 02:05:50 PM »
The good news is that the bridge probably needed to be replaced in the first place.

Im much more concerned about how the ship lost power. It just come out of port, any maintenance should have been completed.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Baltimore Key bridge collapses
« Reply #24: March 26, 2024, 02:31:38 PM »
relatively speaking, it was < 50 years old. There were probably more urgent replacements. I'll guess this wasn't near the top of the list, being on an outer loop bypass route. It's not like the I-75 bridge over the Ohio.