Author Topic: Baltimore Key bridge collapses  (Read 368 times)

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Offline Slateman

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Re: Baltimore Key bridge collapses
« Reply #25: March 26, 2024, 03:02:37 PM »
I'm genuinely impressed they got anyone out of the water at all

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Baltimore Key bridge collapses
« Reply #26: March 26, 2024, 03:08:52 PM »
I'm genuinely impressed they got anyone out of the water at all
yes. 5+ hours of darkness to operate in.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Baltimore Key bridge collapses
« Reply #27: March 26, 2024, 03:11:49 PM »
How many billions does Munich Re have? If someone other than US tax payers isn't on the hook for this, government has utterly failed
dunno if there's a lawsuit here vs the insurers and Maersk, but Biden is calling for Congress to fully fund the replacement.

Offline Natsinpwc

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Re: Baltimore Key bridge collapses
« Reply #28: March 26, 2024, 03:22:00 PM »
I'm genuinely impressed they got anyone out of the water at all
This. 

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Baltimore Key bridge collapses
« Reply #29: March 26, 2024, 03:25:30 PM »
dunno if there's a lawsuit here vs the insurers and Maersk, but Biden is calling for Congress to fully fund the replacement.

We can fund it, but someone needs to reimburse us. If a lawsuit is too messy, just have the CBP or the Coast Guard ban Maersk ships from US waters until the government is made whole.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Baltimore Key bridge collapses
« Reply #30: March 26, 2024, 03:49:55 PM »
Apparently, the 6 remaining people are workers from a contractor that was patching potholes. They were on a meal break and eating near their vehicles that were parked. Police had about a minute to a minute and a half to shut traffic down and get folks off the bridge before the ship struck. The workers were Spanish speakers, so you wonder whether they had word.

There's already a suggestion from safety experts that boats keep tugs until they pass bridges.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2024/03/26/how-key-bridge-collapsed-baltimore/

Quote
“This might have been a case where there were just an unlikely series of failures,” said Tenner, author of “When Things Bite Back,” a book about technology and its unanticipated consequences. But he added, “I suspect there was something about the equipment of a huge ship like that, given the potential for damage like this, there should have been more redundancy. There shouldn’t have been one point of failure that could lead to a catastrophe.”

The ship was towed into the river initially, but the tugboats did not accompany the ship all the way to the bridge, said John Konrad, a retired ship captain who runs the gCaptain maritime news website and co-authored a book on the Deepwater Horizon oil spill.
...
In video imagery, the ship can be seen losing electrical power, then briefly regaining it before going completely dark. The ship then veers to the right, directly toward the bridge’s structural support.

The rudder may have gotten stuck in a position that caused the ship to turn, said a senior retired maritime official, who spoke on background while waiting for more details on the incident. It’s also possible that an incoming tide could have been a factor, he said.

There were protective structures, and more are used in newer bridges, but they were not going to work at the angle the boat came in.

Offline Smithian

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Re: Baltimore Key bridge collapses
« Reply #31: March 26, 2024, 04:42:04 PM »
My guess is there was a cost-benefit analysis done that says, yes, hundreds of thousands of tug boat runs are cheaper than a bridge collapse. But for a bridge collapse you would need an absolutely massive vessel to hit a support beam, and that ship would have to have a catastrophic failure of infinitesimal chance to occur. Therefore, no tug boat runs under the bridge.

Unfortunately, the roll of the dice came up bad.

I don't think a bridge can be built to take a hit like this. I think the review of this incident will point at further redundancies needed on the vessel itself.

Catastrophic failures will always happen. Just have to do everything we can to prevent them.

Offline dracnal

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Re: Baltimore Key bridge collapses
« Reply #32: March 26, 2024, 05:07:38 PM »
My guess is there was a cost-benefit analysis done that says, yes, hundreds of thousands of tug boat runs are cheaper than a bridge collapse. But for a bridge collapse you would need an absolutely massive vessel to hit a support beam, and that ship would have to have a catastrophic failure of infinitesimal chance to occur. Therefore, no tug boat runs under the bridge.

Unfortunately, the roll of the dice came up bad.

I don't think a bridge can be built to take a hit like this. I think the review of this incident will point at further redundancies needed on the vessel itself.

Catastrophic failures will always happen. Just have to do everything we can to prevent them.

Honestly I agree with most of what you say here except for one bit. You can build bridges to take a hit like this in a better fashion than that one. It was designed as one long arch where any failure would cause catastrophic collapse. You can definitely build bridges in a way that it would have taken out a segment for sure, but not the entire thing.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Baltimore Key bridge collapses
« Reply #33: March 26, 2024, 05:52:12 PM »
Apparently, it may have been the angle at which the support was hit. There were protective measures ("dolphins") against a straight-on hit, but the angle made them ineffective. Also, newer bridges have more dolphins protecting from more types of hits.

Before its collapse, the FSKey Bridge had the 3rd longest truss bridge span in the world at 1200+'. The longest is a bit over 1300'.

Offline varoadking

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Re: Baltimore Key bridge collapses
« Reply #34: March 26, 2024, 06:58:53 PM »
The port was blocked so I assume first priority after search and rescue will be clearing debris to reopen the port (2nd busiest in the US).


Most sources don't even list it in the top 10.  It is thought to be the 2nd busiest on the East Coast however...

Offline HondoKillebrew

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Re: Baltimore Key bridge collapses
« Reply #35: March 26, 2024, 07:26:09 PM »
One TV report said the ship dropped anchor at some point prior to impact. I wonder if it was already heading for a certain hit or if that could have also affected the course. A lot of questions. 

Offline imref

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Re: Baltimore Key bridge collapses
« Reply #36: March 26, 2024, 10:21:09 PM »
We can fund it, but someone needs to reimburse us. If a lawsuit is too messy, just have the CBP or the Coast Guard ban Maersk ships from US waters until the government is made whole.
FWIW, in 2007 an 8 lane bridge collapsed in Minnesota. Congress approved, via unanimous vote in both houses, the funds to rebuild it.

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Baltimore Key bridge collapses
« Reply #37: March 27, 2024, 07:25:31 AM »
FWIW, in 2007 an 8 lane bridge collapsed in Minnesota. Congress approved, via unanimous vote in both houses, the funds to rebuild it.

That bridge collapsed due to neglect. This one collapsed when a ship chartered by one of the most valuable companies in the world rammed it.

Offline imref

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Re: Baltimore Key bridge collapses
« Reply #38: March 27, 2024, 07:32:23 AM »
That bridge collapsed due to neglect. This one collapsed when a ship chartered by one of the most valuable companies in the world rammed it.

Yeah, difference scenario. My point is that the government should do whatever is necessary, as quickly as possible, to rebuild it, while also going after those responsible.

Offline Natsinpwc

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Re: Baltimore Key bridge collapses
« Reply #39: March 27, 2024, 07:47:58 AM »
That bridge collapsed due to neglect. This one collapsed when a ship chartered by one of the most valuable companies in the world rammed it.
So you want them to wait for years to rebuild it until courts rule? 

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Baltimore Key bridge collapses
« Reply #40: March 27, 2024, 08:48:22 AM »
there ought to be special legislation establishing a fund to handle the cleanup and rebuild while assigning any federal claims against the company for costs incurred to the fund. Sort of like Superfund for clean up of past hazardous substance disposal.

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Baltimore Key bridge collapses
« Reply #41: March 27, 2024, 08:48:52 AM »
So you want them to wait for years to rebuild it until courts rule? 

You rebuild now, but make sure you recoup as well.

Offline Natsinpwc

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Re: Baltimore Key bridge collapses
« Reply #42: March 27, 2024, 09:41:58 AM »
You rebuild now, but make sure you recoup as well.
Sounds like that will be the plan.

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Baltimore Key bridge collapses
« Reply #43: March 27, 2024, 09:43:47 AM »
Sounds like that will be the plan.

Hopefully it happens.

Offline OfftheBat

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Re: Baltimore Key bridge collapses
« Reply #44: March 27, 2024, 10:39:11 AM »
You rebuild now, but make sure you recoup as well.


Sounds like the best course of action for now...

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Baltimore Key bridge collapses
« Reply #45: March 28, 2024, 05:12:21 PM »
https://www.cnbc.com/2024/03/28/baltimore-disaster-may-be-largest-ever-marine-insurance-payout-lloyds-.html

Quote
Morningstar DBRS analysts said in a Wednesday note that insured losses could total between $2 billion and $4 billion, depending on the length of time that the port is blocked. Such a figure would surpass the current highest amount, which was paid out from the capsizing of the Costa Concordia cruise ship in 2012.

Offline Ali the Baseball Cat

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Re: Baltimore Key bridge collapses
« Reply #46: March 28, 2024, 05:24:22 PM »
I guess Exxon Valdez wasn't insured?

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Baltimore Key bridge collapses
« Reply #47: March 28, 2024, 05:50:57 PM »
I guess Exxon Valdez wasn't insured?
pollution back then was tough to buy insurance for. I did my law review article on it. Exxon I'd imagine self-insured.

Offline GburgNatsFan

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Re: Baltimore Key bridge collapses
« Reply #48: March 28, 2024, 08:48:37 PM »
Very busy for some important things though. Agriculture, cars, coal.

Also, Jesus. Baltimore could stand more jobs.  The decline in steel, rails, shipping over the past 50 years....

Most sources don't even list it in the top 10.  It is thought to be the 2nd busiest on the East Coast however...

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Baltimore Key bridge collapses
« Reply #49: March 29, 2024, 07:49:09 AM »
Coal exports, car imports and exports.