Finnegan: more value keeping or trading?

[JCA-CrystalCity]

Nonsense.  Plenty of relievers make it into their late 30s.  The problem is his salary which next year will top anything the Lerners have ever paid a reliever

I disagree. It's not just childish kool-aid drinkign fan-boiism, either. Sure, relievers generally have a later clock and can succeed past starter/ position player prime. 34, 35 isn't that unheard of. But look at Sean Doolittle's career. Great 2018, good 2019 but with signs of breakdown at 32, then pretty much nothing ages 33-35. Soriano had a good age 33 season but by age 34 (2014) he blew 7 out of 39 save chances and was replaced by Drew Storen as closer. Papelbon had a good age 33 season but by 34 he was smoke and mirrors (he's also somebody who was thought of as the second best closer in the AL for the first 6 years of his career).

Finnegan is getting to the age where maybe he does have another prime year in 2025, but he's getting near the point of slipping. I think a team trading for the short term will love to get him. I think a team that has its contention window starting in 2025 at the earliest would be smart to cash in on his value now.

All of that is independent of a money discussion. You don't need to go there to say that it's the right move.

[SkinsNatFan21RIP]

They're not planning on losing money.  All the drinkers of Rizzo's "championship cycle" Kool-Aid need to remember they didn't have to deal with $50 million of contract and deferral overhang in the 2010s like they will next season.  Additionally, CJ and Gore are arb-eligible next season.  While I think Boras might convince them to sign Tyler O'Neill or Pete Alonso, there's no chance Mini Me wants to foot a large bill for relief pitchers.  Finnegan would likely top the franchise record of $6 million per for a reliever they paid Doo in 2019, so someone else will be paying that.

I really don't think this has anything to do with it though. At least in my opinion it doesn't. He's going to be 33 very soon and has pitched a ton. Relievers have a tendency to fall off a cliff so hanging onto an older one instead of cashing in on a good prospect seems a little crazy to me. This has nothing to do with how I feel about Finny as a player. Unless the Lerners are going to go out and spend next year I don't think we're competing for a Championship so I'm not sure why we would keep an older reliever?

[JCA-CrystalCity]

I really don't think this has anything to do with it though. At least in my opinion it doesn't. He's going to be 33 very soon and has pitched a ton. Relievers have a tendency to fall off a cliff so hanging onto an older one instead of cashing in on a good prospect seems a little crazy to me. This has nothing to do with how I feel about Finny as a player. Unless the Lerners are going to go out and spend next year I don't think we're competing for a Championship so I'm not sure why we would keep an older reliever?

the fact that he has another year of team control is probably a plus for his trade value. I don't expect him to fall off a cliff next year, so he should be usable. It's just he's a FA after that, and it's not a good move to commit to a 34+ year old closer for 2+ years from now. Cash out your chips now and see if you can get a Ramos for Capps kind of deal, or even a Harvey for Wallace and Lomovita deal.

[Slateman]

Lol, they paid Soriano 28 million, paid Will Harris 24 million, paid Papelbon 11 million, and paid Rosenthal 7 million.

6 million franchise record

[IanRubbish]

Lol, they paid Soriano 28 million, paid Will Harris 24 million, paid Papelbon 11 million, and paid Rosenthal 7 million.

6 million franchise record

No one ever taught you how to divide did they?  Philly paid Papelbon and Soriano, in true Lerner form, was a multi-year contract and heavily deferred. It was signed in 2013 and they're still paying it.  Rosenthal had an incentive-laden contact for which he never met the incentives, and Harris was a train wreck.  [Mod edit] Ease up on posting the same devil's advocate [stuff] over and over again

[welch]

If you can’t argue with the substance of what I said, just admit that.  If you want to hold onto infantile beliefs of how modern sports works, then I feel sorry for you.

There is no substance in what you have argued. Present something beyond delusion, and I'll argue it. Now you hint that "modern sports" has changed to become entirely a profit-driven business? Is that it?

It happens that Connie Mack and the Griffith family were about the last owners to live on the profits that their baseball teams made. Maybe add the great Bill Veeck, who, like the Clark Griffith and Connie Mack had no outside fortune. Clark Griffith and Connie Mack fell behind the rest of MLB after WW2. Otherwise, and across nearly all US professional sports, a franchise is a hobby for the super-wealthy, something by which they get to hold trophies on national TV. Why did Jack Kent Cooke own the Redskins?

The Lerner family has made it clear that the Nats operate on their own income, something seperate from the family's real estate business. To be clear, the Nationals are not supposed to lose money. Other teams are operated on different strategies, but not far from what Cooke and the Lerners are about:

- Steve Cohen runs the Mets to win a championship because the Mets are his child-hood team. He wants to hold the WS trophy. Just as Ted Lerner did.

- A group operates the LA Dodgers for fame and fortune over the long haul; the Dodgers are organized to win year after year, to ride the fans of second-largest Metropolitan Statistical Area, to live from a great farm system, and to look for unusual advantages. Such as the Ohtani contract.

So, do you have any evidence that Mark Lerner tells Mike Rizzo who to sign, who to extend, who to trade?

[IanRubbish]

So, do you have any evidence that Mark Lerner tells Mike Rizzo who to sign, who to extend, who to trade?

Do you have any evidence that he doesn't?

The '21 salary dumps absolutely came from Lerner, he pays the bills, and knew the bill was coming due for all the deferrals.  Moreover, it was very well documented that Boras went to the Lerners, not Rizzo, to do the Stras and Max deals, as well as the failed Rendon deal.  You seem to live in some fantasy world where Rizzo is out there deciding what to spend without regard for the owner who can fire him whenever he wants.  No one [else] thinks Rizzo is setting the budget, why do you?

[Slateman]

No one ever taught you how to divide did they?  Philly paid Papelbon and Soriano, in true Lerner form, was a multi-year contract and heavily deferred. It was signed in 2013 and they're still paying it.  Rosenthal had an incentive-laden contact for which he never met the incentives, and Harris was a train wreck.  Remember when you thought a player could get an extra season by getting RoY in a season in which they played 162 games?  LOL, doesn't take much brains to post the same devil's advocate garbage over and over again

The Nationals signed Soriano to a two year, 28 million dollar contract on January 17, 2013: https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/8855032/washington-nationals-sign-rafael-soriano-2-years-half-deferred

Even with the deferrments, they were paying Soriano more than Doolittle's 6 million "franchise record."


The Nationals paid Papelbon 8 million in 2016, and 3 million in 2017: https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/player/earnings/_/id/101/jonathan-papelbon

And Will Harris got 24 million from the Lerners, with none of it deferred: https://www.mlb.com/news/will-harris-deal-with-nationals

Rosenthal's contract had 7 million guaranteed. He could have earned up to 14 million with incentives in 2019, and up to 40 million with incentives and a second option year: https://www.federalbaseball.com/2018/11/3/18058828/washington-nationals-officially-sign-trevor-rosenthal-one-year-deal-with-conditional-option

The idea that they're going to quibble over Finnegan's raise is pretty laughable. His, CJ's and Gore's arbitration raises won't be less than Corbin's contract coming off the books.

[IanRubbish]

Finnegan is getting to the age where maybe he does have another prime year in 2025

And he's also got another year left of team control, so no need to sign him past '25.  But he's going to get a pay increase next year, especially if it goes to arbitration.  Adding $7-$9 million to a payroll that's got $50 million in deferrals, two key players in their first arb season, Keibert's absurd contract, and serious needs on offense is not something Mini Me is going to want to do, especially if Finnegan can be traded for cheaper prospects in a season when the team isn't contending.  Moreover, his value is higher now with a year and a half to go to free agency. 

[JCA-CrystalCity]

Hey, chill on the personal stuff back and forth. It's ok to be skeptical about whether the team is willing to spend like it did pre-2021. Nobody is an idiot for disagreeing, either. I just don't want to spend time editing and removing posts despite being the most active mod here.

[GataNats]

Easy way to remedy this.  Offer Finny a two year extension.  Guy has gotten better every year.   He has three outstanding pitches now. 

[JCA-CrystalCity]

Easy way to remedy this.  Offer Finny a two year extension.  Guy has gotten better every year.   He has three outstanding pitches now. 

not sure I want him locked up to age 35.

[welch]

Keep Finneganinto 2025, then decide. Maybe offer him an extension, since it is hard to find relievers this good.

My two favorite relief pitchers:

- Rich Gossage pitched until he was 42. He had a good season at 40, although he was less of a closer by then. Still handy to have a trust-worthy guy pitch the 7th.

- Mariano Rivera retired at 43, and was great right through his last pitch.

Of course, those two are in the HoF, but the Nats can extend Finnegan two years if he still has it next year. But decide next year.

[OfftheBat]

You can sign guys to add to the bullpen.  You can’t sign prospects.  You get a prospect(s) now, and use free agency to add to the bullpen.

Hopefully they are planning to compete in 2025 then...

[OfftheBat]

They're not planning on losing money.  All the drinkers of Rizzo's "championship cycle" Kool-Aid need to remember they didn't have to deal with $50 million of contract and deferral overhang in the 2010s like they will next season.  Additionally, CJ and Gore are arb-eligible next season.  While I think Boras might convince them to sign Tyler O'Neill or Pete Alonso, there's no chance Mini Me wants to foot a large bill for relief pitchers.  Finnegan would likely top the franchise record of $6 million per for a reliever they paid Doo in 2019, so someone else will be paying that.

I hope you're wrong but I see where you're coming from

[imref]

Lock

[JCA-CrystalCity]

Such a miss not cutting a sell high deal. I guess that second half cratered the team's expectations.