PB69 presents "Fire Dave Martinez" (2018)

[KnorrForYourMoney]

[spidernat]

Did he learn nothing of the walk strategy all those years as Maddon's understudy?

The night before, Maddon was getting killed for doing the very same thing the hindsight geniuses are suggesting Martinez should've done.

[DCFan]

The night before, Maddon was getting killed for doing the very same thing the hindsight geniuses are suggesting Martinez should've done.

Not many strategies are 100% effective but Maddon has single handedly gotten into Harper's head from which he has yet to recover and derailed what was a promising career. That stat they gave the other night which showed Bryce is getting nothing but crap to swing at (leading the league?) which sadly he does anyway. 

[PowerBoater69]

The night before, Maddon was getting killed for doing the very same thing the hindsight geniuses are suggesting Martinez should've done.

Maddon's team got outscored 14-11 but won two of three, he did something right that Martinez missed. At the end of the two close games the Cubs believed they would win, the Nats didn't.

[Vega]

Perfect. Post of the year.

[HalfSmokes]

They already had that reputation, that's why they got Martinez in the first place. We crap on Dusty here, but in the rest of the baseball world he does garner respect. When you let him go after 2 90+ win seasons, baseball folks are going to think there is dysfunction in your organization. That reputation is already baked in, if you determine Martinez isn't the guy, dump him and move on. 

he garners so much respect that we hired him from the broadcast booth and he's gone back to not managing after leaving here. 

[bluestreak]

he garners so much respect that we hired him from the broadcast booth and he's gone back to not managing after leaving here.

Everyone wanted a young “analytics” person. I’m not making this up. Literally, everyone in the national baseball media, was perplexed by this move. We have convinced ourselves that Baker is an imbecile that stumbled into 1800 wins.
Just google the coverage of any journalist not based in DC. That’s what managerial candidates are reading. Or how they treated Bud Black.

[HalfSmokes]

Everyone wanted a young “analytics” person. I’m not making this up. Literally, everyone in the national baseball media, was perplexed by this move. We have convinced ourselves that Baker is an imbecile that stumbled into 1800 wins.
Just google the coverage of any journalist not based in DC. That’s what managerial candidates are reading. Or how they treated Bud Black.

and all those people who believe he's a great manager, how do they explain 2014 or 2015, or that he was available after the Bud Black debacle? For the amount of respect he has, not many teams seem to actually want him. We're going to end up with leftovers not because of how we treated baker, but because the team never give a manager a third year 

[bluestreak]

and all those people who believe he's a great manager, how do they explain 2014, or 2015, or that he was available after the Bud Black debacle? For the amount of respect he has, not many teams seem to actually want him

You can say, “I don’t think the guy is the right fit” and still say “Man, that’s crazy the way the Nats treated a good guy and they really do go through managers a lot for a team that’s won a lot of games...”

It’s unclear to me that even in this crapshow of a season why there is still a significant portion of folks here that refuse to entertain the notion that getting rid of the guy may have been an error.

The Nats have treated the managers like crap. They have run through them, fired them too quickly, and have not paid them enough. This is not debateable. It didn’t start with Dusty, but Dusty is definitely another data point. Firing Martinez isn’t going to give the Nats a new reputation. It’s just going to be a data point confirming an already established one.
 
But yeah. Hang on to the “Nobody else has hired Dusty so he sucks and Rizzo made the right move” philosophy. 

[HalfSmokes]

You can say, “I don’t think the guy is the right fit” and still say “Man, that’s crazy the way the Nats treated a good guy and they really do go through managers a lot for a team that’s won a lot of games...”

It’s unclear to me that even in this crapshow of a season why there is still a significant portion of folks here that refuse to entertain the notion that getting rid of the guy may have been an error.

The Nats have treated the managers like crap. They have run through them, fired them too quickly, and have not paid them enough. This is not debateable. It didn’t start with Dusty, but Dusty is definitely another data point. Firing Martinez isn’t going to give the Nats a new reputation. It’s just going to be a data point confirming an already established one.
 
But yeah. Hang on to the “Nobody else has hired Dusty so he sucks and Rizzo made the right move” philosophy. 

I'll stick with the other teams shied from him when the reds fired for a reason and continue the not hire him philosophy. But he was friendly with the media who love him, so obviously every team in baseball not hiring him made a mistake

[KnorrForYourMoney]

Everyone wanted a young “analytics” person. I’m not making this up. Literally, everyone in the national baseball media, was perplexed by this move. We have convinced ourselves that Baker is an imbecile that stumbled into 1800 wins.
Just google the coverage of any journalist not based in DC. That’s what managerial candidates are reading. Or how they treated Bud Black.

You can say, “I don’t think the guy is the right fit” and still say “Man, that’s crazy the way the Nats treated a good guy and they really do go through managers a lot for a team that’s won a lot of games...”

It’s unclear to me that even in this crapshow of a season why there is still a significant portion of folks here that refuse to entertain the notion that getting rid of the guy may have been an error.

The Nats have treated the managers like crap. They have run through them, fired them too quickly, and have not paid them enough. This is not debateable. It didn’t start with Dusty, but Dusty is definitely another data point. Firing Martinez isn’t going to give the Nats a new reputation. It’s just going to be a data point confirming an already established one.
 
But yeah. Hang on to the “Nobody else has hired Dusty so he sucks and Rizzo made the right move” philosophy. 

Are your arms sore from moving the goalposts in record time?

[Vega]

Are your arms sore from moving the goalposts in record time?

Excellent new avatar.

[KnorrForYourMoney]

Excellent new avatar.

Cornette is the man

[bluestreak]

Are your arms sore from moving the goalposts in record time?

Read the posts, the first one was about how the Nationals are going to hurt themselves with future managerial candidates because the FO/ownership is seen as dysfunctional. And part of that is how they treated Baker and part is how they have treated other managers. Because regardless of respect, Dusty was still respected in many corners of the baseball world.

The second one was is response to HS's assertion that if people respected Dusty, why wasn't he hired. And I said, a team or GM or other managerial candidate could say "Dusty Baker is not a good fit for us now, but the Nats sure did screw up with how they treated him, they sure must have crappy ownership"  Those two things aren't mutually exclusive. Nor is having respect for someone, even if you don't happen to offer them a job.

Reading is fundamental. Try to keep up. 

[KnorrForYourMoney]

Read the posts, the first one was about how the Nationals are going to hurt themselves with future managerial candidates because the FO/ownership is seen as dysfunctional. And part of that is how they treated Baker and part is how they have treated other managers. Because regardless of respect, Dusty was still respected in many corners of the baseball world.

The second one was is response to HS's assertion that if people respected Dusty, why wasn't he hired. And I said, a team or GM or other managerial candidate could say "Dusty Baker is not a good fit for us now, but the Nats sure did screw up with how they treated him, they sure must have crappy ownership"  Those two things aren't mutually exclusive. Nor is having respect for someone, even if you don't happen to offer them a job.

Reading is fundamental. Try to keep up. 

Oh, so your sentence about Dusty having 1800 wins was just brought up as a non-sequitur rather than a defense of his merits as an MLB manager.  Okay, sorry, my bad for not assuming crap.

[HalfSmokes]

The second one was is response to HS's assertion that if people respected Dusty, why wasn't he hired. And I said, a team or GM or other managerial candidate could say "Dusty Baker is not a good fit for us now, but the Nats sure did screw up with how they treated him, they sure must have crappy ownership"  Those two things aren't mutually exclusive. Nor is having respect for someone, even if you don't happen to offer them a job.

In 2014, 30 teams decided not to hire him. In 2015, 30 teams decided not to hire him. In 2016, he was available long after other candidates because he was no one’s first choice, and again in 2018, 30 teams decided not to hire him, yet everyone in baseball respects him as a manager. Makes sense

[bluestreak]

Oh, so your sentence about Dusty having 1800 wins was just brought up as a non-sequitur rather than a defense of his merits as an MLB manager.  Okay, sorry, my bad for not assuming crap.

I think he was a good manager. I think the majority of people on this board and even in DC maybe think he's an imbecile.

This is different than me saying that I realize a team might not want to hire him, because, you know, baseball front offices don't usually solicit my opinions.

[HalfSmokes]

I think he was a good manager. I think the majority of people on this board and even in DC maybe think he's an imbecile.

This is different than me saying that I realize a team might not want to hire him, because, you know, baseball front offices don't usually solicit my opinions.

It’s not a team, it’s every team for multiple years

[bluestreak]

In 2014, 30 teams decided not to hire him. In 2015, 30 teams decided not to hire him. In 2016, he was available long after other candidates because he was no one’s first choice, and again in 2018, 30 teams decided not to hire him, yet everyone in baseball respects him as a manager. Makes sense

You honestly don't think that there are folks out there that the Nats could potentially hire as a manager that don't respect Dusty Baker? It is outside of the realm of possibility that if the Nats tried to hire, say, Joe Girardi there is no chance he might say, "Jeez, Dusty got a raw deal, I'll wait for a front office that doesn't operate in that manner."?

That's all I was trying to say. Trying to assert that Dusty Baker has zero respect in baseball circles because no team hired him seems weird actually. 

[HalfSmokes]

I think they’ll strike out because no manager since acta has lasted more than two seasons- Dusty is part of a long line of cautionary tales for future managers.

[bluestreak]

I think they’ll strike out because no manager since acta has lasted more than two seasons- Dusty is part of a long line of cautionary tales for future managers.

I literally said this further up in the thread

The Nats have treated the managers like crap. They have run through them, fired them too quickly, and have not paid them enough. This is not debateable. It didn’t start with Dusty, but Dusty is definitely another data point. Firing Martinez isn’t going to give the Nats a new reputation. It’s just going to be a data point confirming an already established one.
 

[LoveAngelos]

Max comes into the clubhouse everyday, looks around at his teammates and does that rueful Lerch moan.

[PowerBoater69]

And now, here we are with easily the most disappointing team in baseball. It's a veteran team that has won together being led by a first-year manager who at times appears in over his head. I'm not saying this all the fault of Martinez. After all, he's not the one who ditched two quality bullpen arms and tried to replace them with what's left of Greg Holland.

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/nationals-firing-dusty-baker-continues-to-show-front-office-cant-seem-to-get-it-right-with-managers/

[Baseball is Life]

Max comes into the clubhouse everyday, looks around at his teammates and does that rueful Lerch moan.

[aspenbubba]

Since everyone has an opinion on Dusty that will never achieve consensus on this board why doesn’t someone recite the managers who were treated unfairly. Williams Riggleman Acta the real Davey? Maybe there could be an argument for Robinson. Were they underpaid. My research showed that Dusty was the middle of the pack. The Lerner’s don’t like long term contracts but yet they gave 3 years to DM.

Besides PB69 who was adamantly against DM’s hire. And who did you want of the seven who were eventually hired for the positions that were open. Giarardi wasn’t going to manage this year. And did you post it prior to ST?