PB69 presents "Fire Dave Martinez" (2018)

[NatsAllThe Way]

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2018/03/31/phillies-manager-gabe-kapler-tries-make-pitching-change-without-reliever-ready/476372002/

LOL

[BuckyHarris]

Yeah well he was 1 for 4 last night.  An improvement.  But not nearly adequate for leadoff.  Still, it's just one game.  But what are you going to do leave him at leadoff until he gradually feels good enough about himself to raise his level of play to where he he is a legitimate leadoff batter?  He'll feel plently good.  But we'll be in last place.

Your point, which maybe is obscure to some, was that it's not Little League. You play the hand you're dealt, and DM has been dealt better leadoff players. MAT strikes me as a little streaky, lapses into bad habits, and his baserunning is rough. Thought your argument that right now #9 would be a good spot made sense.

[ToddGack]

Would you be kind enough to provide the complete list of things he's doing all wrong, and what he should be doing?


I don't have the complete list but a few are:
(1) Making pitching change before PH is announced.
(2) Not pinch running for Adams when down by 1 in ninth. Even little kids know its easier to get a single and a fly ball than the 3 more singles needed to get Adams home from first.
(3) Takes his starter out after 5.1 IP and only 57 pitches then has to use his entire bullpen to finish the game.
(4) Takes his starter out after 5.2 IP and only 61 pitches and 0 runs and only 2 hits and 0 walks. Burns 4 relievers. Then he complains that the bullpen has been overworked and they need a big start from his starter.
(5) Bats Harper first. Idiotic move. Just another attention getter for Martinez. How many times over the years have you heard every announcer say how important it is to get this third out because you don't want to face Stanton, Cespedes, Harper etc. with runners on base. Much rather have these guys leading off with nobody on. Batting Harper first is doing the other manager a favor and they are probably laughing at him.


There are many more but the game is starting.

[Greg_SRT]

Would you be kind enough to provide the complete list of things he's doing all wrong, and what he should be doing?


I don't have the complete list but a few are:
(1) Making pitching change before PH is announced.
(2) Not pinch running for Adams when down by 1 in ninth. Even little kids know its easier to get a single and a fly ball than the 3 more singles needed to get Adams home from first.
(3) Takes his starter out after 5.1 IP and only 57 pitches then has to use his entire bullpen to finish the game.
(4) Takes his starter out after 5.2 IP and only 61 pitches and 0 runs and only 2 hits and 0 walks. Burns 4 relievers. Then he complains that the bullpen has been overworked and they need a big start from his starter.
(5) Bats Harper first. Idiotic move. Just another attention getter for Martinez. How many times over the years have you heard every announcer say how important it is to get this third out because you don't want to face Stanton, Cespedes, Harper etc. with runners on base. Much rather have these guys leading off with nobody on. Batting Harper first is doing the other manager a favor and they are probably laughing at him.


There are many more but the game is starting.

1 is a legit mistake

Everything else is you dont like.

[ToddGack]

1 is a legit mistake

Everything else is you dont like.

I don't like them because they are bad baseball decisions. There is no defending him for not pinch running for Adams in that game. With the outfield playing back you needed 3 more singles or a HR to score Adams. There has been 2 more times since then that the Nats had a slow runner on first with no outs and down by one in the ninth and he has pinch ran both times, once for Wieters and once for Zimmerman. At least he is learning. And you can't take your starter out after 50-60 pitches when he is pitching well and then complain that the bullpen needs rest.

[Greg_SRT]

Those are things you don't like.

If the staff has the data that says someone isn't successful third time thru the lineup, it doesn't matter if he's thrown 95 or 65 pitches. For example.

Using the hindsight isn't something one can actually use beforehand

[dcpatti]

Those are things you don't like.

If the staff has the data that says someone isn't successful third time thru the lineup, it doesn't matter if he's thrown 95 or 65 pitches. For example.

Using the hindsight isn't something one can actually use beforehand

Opponent batting average against Hellickson is something like .111 the first two times, and over .600 the third.  Saying he’s not successful the third time through the lineup is an understatement. A manager’s job is to set the players up for success, and in the curious case of Jeremy Hellickson, that means being quick with the hook, and getting him out of there before the trouble begins, not after. Absolutely the right move, even if he’s thrown only 55 pitches and not given up any runs.

[Greg_SRT]

Opponent batting average against Hellickson is something like .111 the first two times, and over .600 the third.  Saying he’s not successful the third time through the lineup is an understatement. A manager’s job is to set the players up for success, and in the curious case of Jeremy Hellickson, that means being quick with the hook, and getting him out of there before the trouble begins, not after. Absolutely the right move, even if he’s thrown only 55 pitches and not given up any runs.

Agreed.

[DCFan]

Agreed.

Managers (just like any profession) are supposed to utilize their people to get maximum output.  Otherwise any idiot could sit there and make "the standard decision". 

[Greg_SRT]

Managers (just like any profession) are supposed to utilize their people to get maximum output.  Otherwise any idiot could sit there and make "the standard decision".

And what's the standard decision?

[varoadking]

And what's the standard decision?

Matt (The Big Intern) Williams' go-to strategy...

[DCFan]

Matt (The Big Intern) Williams' go-to strategy...

 

[catocony]

Regarding Helickson, or any of the other starters currently caught up in the "no third time" craze, I think it just reiterates the problem with today's pitchers.  It used to be that to be a successful starter, you needed 3 solid pitches as a minimum, and enough of a 4th to mix things up the 3rd or 4th time around.  First time through, you stick to two pitches for the most part, fastball and breaking ball.  You throw a couple of change-ups at most.  Second time through, go to fastball, breaking ball and change-up with maybe a couple of your 4th pitch in there.  Third time through, you throw everything you have.  If you never develop a solid third pitch and decent fourth pitch, you end up in the bullpen.

I don't see starters these days following the old tried and true patterns.  They come out throwing pretty much everything from the get-go. There isn't much surprise there by the middle innings. 

[Greg_SRT]

Matt Williams would have most definitely kept a pitcher in based on low pitch count even if he had data saying said pitcher performs poorly 3rd time thru. Thankfully he isn't here to make decisions.

[GburgNatsFan]

Flame throwing strike out artists get the big contracts.

Regarding Helickson, or any of the other starters currently caught up in the "no third time" craze, I think it just reiterates the problem with today's pitchers.  It used to be that to be a successful starter, you needed 3 solid pitches as a minimum, and enough of a 4th to mix things up the 3rd or 4th time around.  First time through, you stick to two pitches for the most part, fastball and breaking ball.  You throw a couple of change-ups at most.  Second time through, go to fastball, breaking ball and change-up with maybe a couple of your 4th pitch in there.  Third time through, you throw everything you have.  If you never develop a solid third pitch and decent fourth pitch, you end up in the bullpen.

I don't see starters these days following the old tried and true patterns.  They come out throwing pretty much everything from the get-go. There isn't much surprise there by the middle innings.

[dcpatti]

Matt Williams would have most definitely kept a pitcher in based on low pitch count even if he had data saying said pitcher performs poorly 3rd time thru. Thankfully he isn't here to make decisions.

This management style probably has a lot to do with why Hellickson had such bad numbers in Baltimore.

[Natsinpwc]

It's nice to know that many are just biding their time until a few losses so they can start in with the doom and gloom about Martinez.

[PowerBoater69]

Is a 100+ pitch per start pace sustainable?

[Greg_SRT]

Is a 100+ pitch per start pace sustainable?

Who knows. It was last year. Guys had to go longer because issues in the pen.

[HalfSmokes]

Is a 100+ pitch per start pace sustainable?

No

Who knows. It was last year. Guys had to go longer because issues in the pen.

Risking the most valuable assets the tea has to protect relievers sounds like a bad idea

[Greg_SRT]

No

Risking the most valuable assets the tea has to protect relievers sounds like a bad idea

It has it's risks. But what was Dusty to do. The blown saves was killing the team at the time.

[Natsinpwc]

Here are last year's stats. Not much different.

https://www.teamrankings.com/mlb/player-stat/pitches-per-game?season_id=637

With the 10 day DL they can strategically find injuries and have guys miss a start throughout the year. Undoubtedly some real injuries will happen also.

[Natsinpwc]

No

Risking the most valuable assets the tea has to protect relievers sounds like a bad idea

Need to look at last year. Tanner and Gio were over 100 and Max and Stras almost at 100. Depends on how many games they start also.

[DCFan]

Is a 100+ pitch per start pace sustainable?

I asked this Q in the GDT yesterday when this graphic was shown.  Patti was impressed while I was a little concerned. But since you posted this in the Davey thread are you putting this on him or the pitchers who have conniption fits at the first hint of removal?

Nice job with the screen capture btw.

[Natsinpwc]

I asked this Q in the GDT yesterday when this graphic was shown.  Patti was impressed while I was a little concerned. But since you posted this in the Davey thread are you putting this on him or the pitchers who have conniption fits at the first hint of removal?

Nice job with the screen capture btw.

I'm sure he is even though the stats are basically the same as last year.