2018 bullpen

[dcpatti]

In the big picture though what has Doolittle and Madsen done to help us?

 

Both of those guys have been spot-on for us. If it weren't for acquiring them last year, we wouldn't have made the playoffs and they both did what they needed to do in October (Doolittle 0.00 ERA, 0.33 WHIP, and Madson gave up a single run in a game in which we failed to score any runs at all, then put up 3 scoreless innings over the remaining 3 games in which he appeared).

Treinen has pitched brilliantly and we traded what looks to be an ace lefty away.

We traded away a potential ace lefty who did, indeed, reach his potential with the Pirates, and in exchange we got a guy who stabilized the back end of the bullpen for half a season and did his job in October, like the others.

No one is going to give you a lights out closer for a PTBNL and international slot money. You have to give up some real talent to get guys like this.  It's not Melancon's, Doolittle's, or Madson's fault that the offense decides to disappear in October.

 

[varoadking]

Trienen wasn’t going to pitch brilliantly here. He needed a change of scenery. And Doolittle is one of, if not the best closers in baseball. And is under control for two years after this one. Madson has been good but not great. But 4 years of an elite closer is going to cost you something.

I though Doo was only under control thru 2019?

Nevermind...I see that we have him thru 2020...

[spidernat]

Trienen wasn’t going to pitch brilliantly here.

This is all that needs to be said.

[imref]

This is all that needs to be said.

the Nats saw enough in him to name him closer going into last season, that's a tall order for a team expected to contend for a WS, and he couldn't handle the pressure.  I'm happy for him, but we made the right move in trading him to Oakland.

[Elvir Ovcina]

This is all that needs to be said.

Indeed.  I've seen him pitch a lot this year, including a few times in person (most recently Saturday).  He doesn't really even look like the same guy.  Yeah, the sinker's the same, but the mechanics are steady and the body language is much, much better.  Not sure what had gotten into his head in DC, but that just wasn't going to happen with the Nats. 

the Nats saw enough in him to name him closer going into last season, that's a tall order for a team expected to contend for a WS, and he couldn't handle the pressure.  I'm happy for him, but we made the right move in trading him to Oakland.

The Nats saw what everyone else did: 98 with sink, plus a hard-AF slider.   He's now got a cutter, too, but he also finally seems right in the head.

[catocony]

In the big picture though what has Doolittle and Madsen done to help us?

Treinen has pitched brilliantly and we traded what looks to be an ace lefty away.

Doolittle is better than Treinan, so I don't see your argument at all.  The combined Madson/Doolittle has been far more beneficial to the Nats than Treinan has been to the A's. 

Rivero was traded for a top closer.  Playoff teams make those types of trades every season.

I don't know what some of the malcontents want.  Dumpster diving for lobster is rarely successful, so you can't expect to get quality players without giving up some potential quality of your own.  No team is going to trade a top guy like Doolittle for a couple of guys in Potomac with 6.00 ERAs, or a kid in Hagerstown hitting .220. 

[CoryTheFormerExposFan]

In the big picture though what has Doolittle and Madsen done to help us?

Treinen has pitched brilliantly and we traded what looks to be an ace lefty away.

Are you really asking what Doo and Mad have done to help us?

[Slateman]

In the big picture though what has Doolittle and Madsen done to help us?

Treinen has pitched brilliantly and we traded what looks to be an ace lefty away.

Uh.hhh .... do you remember what it was like without them?

[Elvir Ovcina]

Doolittle is better than Treinan, so I don't see your argument at all.  The combined Madson/Doolittle has been far more beneficial to the Nats than Treinan has been to the A's. 

Rivero was traded for a top closer.  Playoff teams make those types of trades every season.

I don't know what some of the malcontents want.  Dumpster diving for lobster is rarely successful, so you can't expect to get quality players without giving up some potential quality of your own.  No team is going to trade a top guy like Doolittle for a couple of guys in Potomac with 6.00 ERAs, or a kid in Hagerstown hitting .220.

I've said before I didn't mind the trade.  Still don't know, and won't even if Luzardo turns out to be really good.  It was the right move at the time, not least because Treinen was not going to do anything in DC remotely like what he's doing now.

That said, I'm not sure Treinen hasn't been as useful to Oakland as Doolittle and Madson have to the Nats, especially this season (when it's actually mattered to Oakland; last year was just playing out the string by the time they got him).  I'm not a huge fan of WAR for relievers - especially closers - but it's worth noting that Treinen this year has more of it than Doolittle and Madson combined.   What this trade is looking like, at least as to the relievers, is that the Nats got a huge boost to their pen in the year they really needed it, and the A's got it in the year they really needed it.   How the trade nets out in the future may depend on Luzardo more than anything else, but this looks like a deal that has helped both teams in major ways, just not quite at the same time.

[bluestreak]

I've said before I didn't mind the trade.  Still don't know, and won't even if Luzardo turns out to be really good.  It was the right move at the time, not least because Treinen was not going to do anything in DC remotely like what he's doing now.

That said, I'm not sure Treinen hasn't been as useful to Oakland as Doolittle and Madson have to the Nats, especially this season (when it's actually mattered to Oakland; last year was just playing out the string by the time they got him).  I'm not a huge fan of WAR for relievers - especially closers - but it's worth noting that Treinen this year has more of it than Doolittle and Madson combined.   What this trade is looking like, at least as to the relievers, is that the Nats got a huge boost to their pen in the year they really needed it, and the A's got it in the year they really needed it.   How the trade nets out in the future may depend on Luzardo more than anything else, but this looks like a deal that has helped both teams in major ways, just not quite at the same time.

And this is how trades are supposed to work. Win/win for both sides. If it seems like you fleece someone in every trade, then eventually teams stop taking your calls...

[Natsinpwc]

Nats should have held on to Treinen so they could have missed the playoffs last year. Then expectations this year would have been lower so people would not be so upset.

[Slateman]

So ... is Holland on a minor league deal or what?

[imref]

So ... is Holland on a minor league deal or what?

last I saw was they were close, but no deal.

[Jeff in Gaithersburg]

I'd be surprised if Holland has anything left at this point.

[JCA-CrystalCity]

I'd be surprised if Holland has anything left at this point.

yah, they didn't even make the world cup.





oh, a different Holland?






Never mind.

[Truconfidence]

In the big picture though what has Doolittle and Madsen done to help us?

Treinen has pitched brilliantly and we traded what looks to be an ace lefty away.

Not blow saves like Trienen did. Sometimes guys perform better after a change of scenery. If Trienen next year get shelled, you gonna have this same view? Also I seem to remember Doolittle closing the games he pitched in the playoffs unlike Storen or Trienen ever did.

[tomterp]

Back to the subject of Kelley, i didn't see anyone post this from Chelsea:

The 34-year-old right-hander was pitching to a 3.34 ERA at the time of the incident, after which teammates including Max Scherzer and Ryan Madson confronted him about showing up their manager.

So it wasn't just Rizzo, there was dissent from his peers.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/nationals-journal/wp/2018/08/05/nationals-officially-cut-ties-with-shawn-kelley-with-trade-to-the-athletics/?utm_term=.19f671f937fc

[Expos]

Uh.hhh .... do you remember what it was like without them?

Who cares?? Yeah Doolittle is better than Treinen but not by much. Madson. Meh. He is nothing special.

At the end of the day we lost out in the playoffs so yeah, what did they do to make us better? Maybe we won an extra playoff game or two but who cares if we lost out?

Felipe Rivero or Melancon?

Giving away AJ Cole for free to keep Kelly who we ended up cutting anyways.

Treinen and a stud lefty for Doolittle and Madson?

I'd rather keep the stud prospects personally. Rivero, Treinen and Cole at less than half the salaries plus all the other prospects we gave up are better than what Doolittle, Melancon and Madson did or are doing for us.

[Slateman]

Who cares?? Yeah Doolittle is better than Treinen but not by much. Madson. Meh. He is nothing special.

At the end of the day we lost out in the playoffs so yeah, what did they do to make us better? Maybe we won an extra playoff game or two but who cares if we lost out?

Felipe Rivero or Melancon?

Giving away AJ Cole for free to keep Kelly who we ended up cutting anyways.

Treinen and a stud lefty for Doolittle and Madson?

I'd rather keep the stud prospects personally. Rivero, Treinen and Cole at less than half the salaries plus all the other prospects we gave up are better than what Doolittle, Melancon and Madson did or are doing for us.

Uh ... please go back to the beginning of the 2017 season. The bullpen was a freaking disaster.

Treinen had an ERA over 5 as the closer. Couldn't strike anyone out and couldn't keep anyone off base.

Vazquez rocking that sweet sweet 4.53 ERA when he was traded.

Are we winning those playoff games if we kept any of the players we dealt? No.

Vazquez and Treinen were never considered "stud prospects". Cole hasnt been one since 2012. They did nothing for us when they were here. What did those trades do for us? They gave us a chance when we sure as crap didnt have one before those trades. And honestly, if Dusty Baker wasnt a complete freaking moron in Game 3 with his bullpen management, the Nats win that series in 4 games.

[Smithian]

In the big picture though what has Doolittle and Madsen done to help us?

[Slateman]

freak the umps

[imref]

so now we're without Kintzler, Kelley, Herrera, and Doolittle.  What a difference a week makes.

[KnorrForYourMoney]

Seriously, every time I think I've read the dumbest crap ever on this board, someone has to go and one-up it.

[rileyn]

so now we're without Kintzler, Kelley, Herrera, and Doolittle.  What a difference a week makes.
[/quote

How long until we start reading reports of an anonymous veteran in the clubhouse grumbling about Rizzo's temper tantrum leaving us out to dry with a bare bullpen?

[hotshot]

Indeed.  I've seen him pitch a lot this year, including a few times in person (most recently Saturday).  He doesn't really even look like the same guy.  Yeah, the sinker's the same, but the mechanics are steady and the body language is much, much better.  Not sure what had gotten into his head in DC, but that just wasn't going to happen with the Nats. 

The Nats saw what everyone else did: 98 with sink, plus a hard-AF slider.   He's now got a cutter, too, but he also finally seems right in the head.

Maybe Emerson, the A's pitching coach, made the difference for him??