Fire Matt Williams! (2015) - Standard Decision.

[HalfSmokes]

I can live with Rizzo in charge for the rest of my life if he keeps assembling rosters of this quality, and depth all the way down to 18 year olds as he has done without a second thought. As a team builder he's virtually peerless in the league.

well, execpt the GMs with rings, and world series appearances, and those fortunate enough to have a team get out of the division series.

Consider the paltry haul the Phils got for Hamels considering what they wanted, compared to what we got for Souza. That's all you need to know.

that and the phills won a ring and got another series appearance with hamels

Rizzo-he's built a team much like the cardinals that's great in the majors, and great to the very bottom of the minors as well, reloading as needed. Not the results of the Cards yet obviously, but that wasn't Rizzo's fault, he put the team in position, the manager and t
he players were needed to do the rest.

so much like the cardinals, except the whole success thing?

[Slateman]

The roster and organization are regarded universally as amongst the very best in baseball the past five years. Why in heck would anyone point at him? Heck even the playoff failures, and current failure have zilch to do with Rizzo.

'12-Colossal choke job against Cards.
'14-Williams Clown Car Manager while Bochy owns him in a series where Williams had repeated opportunities to get things right and always made wrong choice.
'15-injuries and Williams stupidity have hurt us big time.

Rizzo owns everybody in trades, has one of the best collections of scouts/drafts in MLB, and has a team that blends veteran depth, with in prime guys, and youth, even has great pitchers in minors to fill holes at Zim, Fister and possibly Strass leave.

Rizzo is the last guy to blame.

Would think we wouldn't get spoiled so soon by his work as GM, but apparently so. Seriously, we've seen some horrific management decisions by prior Expos/Nationals GM's over the years and in general. Looking around the league the GM's who've done a better job drafting/developing/and making trades around the league can be counted with 1 or 2 fingers, if that.

What's gone wrong has to do with mental make up of certain players, and incompetent management, mixed with some injuries. The team is built so well they could continue to seriously contend, if they did absolutely nothing with FA's, for the next 3-4 years no problem. That's a well built team.

Don't mistake Williams being a block head, "Mongo" idiot, with Rizzo being a seriously flawed architect of organizations. Until Mcloughan arrived (and I detested his first, horrific draft), Rizzo was the only GM in town of actual quality, and luckily, he's not just quality, he's superb, I just wish he was a bit more trusting of the numbers, and a little less instinctive, and didn't have a soft spot for work hard/tough/blockhead morons like Williams).

I wouldn't go so far as to say Rizzo is blameless. This team has needed a big bat for the last three years. This offseason, Donaldson was on the market and the Nats had the prospects. Josh Donaldson in this lineup probably gets the Nationals about 4 games up right now.

[Ray D]

We can overcome Williams, and the stupidity of his signing, hell I can even live with it, if Rizzo is running the show

Here's the problem I have with that idea.  It is inexplicable that Desmond continues to play ahead of Espinosa.  One cannot overestimate the extend to which that is bringing the team down. We don't know who is making that call but we know it's either Williams or Rizzo.  If it's Williams, then no, we cannot overcome him. If it's Rizzo. we have to seriously question his judgement.

[skippy1999]

I wouldn't go so far as to say Rizzo is blameless. This team has needed a big bat for the last three years. This offseason, Donaldson was on the market and the Nats had the prospects. Josh Donaldson in this lineup probably gets the Nationals about 4 games up right now.

Exactly

[mmzznnxx]

Here's the problem I have with that idea.  It is inexplicable that Desmond continues to play ahead of Espinosa.  One cannot overestimate the extend to which that is bringing the team down. We don't know who is making that call but we know it's either Williams or Rizzo.  If it's Williams, then no, we cannot overcome him. If it's Rizzo. we have to seriously question his judgement.

It doesn't matter. If Rizzo wanted Espinosa playing, he would be in the lineup. He's given Matt the reigns which makes him as culpable as Matt.

They both gots to go.

[Ray D]

It doesn't matter. If Rizzo wanted Espinosa playing, he would be in the lineup. He's given Matt the reigns which makes him as culpable as Matt.

They both gots to go.

I agree with the first point:  If Rizzo is making the call then Matt's not to blame. If Matt's making the call, they both are to blame.

I don't agree that Rizzo has to go, not just on the Espinosa issue alone, which is inexplicable, but it's not enough to get rid of Rizzo, balanced against the good he's done.

[UMDNats]

I don't have a big problem with Rizzo because as constructed this roster should be well ahead of everyone else in the division. The execution has been horrific, though.

[varoadking]

I don't have a big problem with Rizzo because as constructed this roster should be well ahead of everyone else in the division. The execution has been horrific, though.

So...you're not in favor of this team's execution?

[Wheat]

If the Nats don't make the playoffs he'll get crap-canned at season's end.  If they make the playoffs he'll be retained even if they get bounced in the first round.

I didn't see that.

I'm not a McCatty guy. Its mostly because I think he doesn't get the best from his guys consistently. One of those situations where I don't need to see him interviewed after Max's no-hitter. Our arguable best and most consistent guy last year spent the least about of years with McCatty and that's the case again this year. I don't think he's a bad coach. I just think he's leaving a lot of the table.

When Williams went out earlier this year to bark at a pitcher, I felt that was as much as yelling at the pitching coach.

You can be a fine coach....and have fine players....and for some reason. The best isn't created.

Would have liked to see a change in that position the past offseason. Thank Steve for his service. Even offer him a F.O. gig. But I want younger blood as PC.

[BeltwayBaseball]

I wouldn't go so far as to say Rizzo is blameless. This team has needed a big bat for the last three years. This offseason, Donaldson was on the market and the Nats had the prospects. Josh Donaldson in this lineup probably gets the Nationals about 4 games up right now.

The Lerners and Rizzo seem to be on the same page, that it's better to win titles year after year than take that shot at that one WS win. I think it was in that "Baseball returns to Washington" MASN special, Mark Lerner said it word for word, "We want to be like the Cardinals, we want to be like the 1990s Atlanta Braves, we want to be like the Dodgers and the Yankees, we want to be a team that is in it every year." Rizzo has held tight to all of his prospects while improving the team significantly on the cheap (Thornton, Escobar, Papelbon, Ross, etc). If he trades those prospects for Donaldson, 2016-18 look a lot worse. Those are the Harper years. And I think it's up for debate that we should have been all-in this year considering the injuries and regression (not that Rizzo could have predicted that).

This team had big bats, their names were Werth, Zimmerman, Rendon, Desmond and Ramos. Donaldson wasn't replacing that kind of production. Playoffs are a crapshoot anyways, those names should have put up better numbers last year, they're just chokers (minus Rendon).

[HalfSmokes]

If he trades those prospects for Donaldson, 2016-18 look a lot worse.

how does trading for one of the best players in baseball who will be under team control through 2018, make the team worse in 2016? What group of prospects could you come up with that would have equated to the 6.5 WAR that you can probably expect from Donaldson in 2016?

This team had big bats, their names were Werth, Zimmerman, Rendon, Desmond and Ramos. Donaldson wasn't replacing that kind of production.

yes, better not add a player because he can't replace the production of 5 players (not even trout is out producing five players combined), not reason to ever upgrade because you can't find a player who can hit 1.000 while belting 80 home runs

[Matugi]

I'll forgive Rizzo when he signs Wieters in the offseason.

[Slateman]

The Lerners and Rizzo seem to be on the same page, that it's better to win titles year after year than take that shot at that one WS win. I think it was in that "Baseball returns to Washington" MASN special, Mark Lerner said it word for word, "We want to be like the Cardinals, we want to be like the 1990s Atlanta Braves, we want to be like the Dodgers and the Yankees, we want to be a team that is in it every year." Rizzo has held tight to all of his prospects while improving the team significantly on the cheap (Thornton, Escobar, Papelbon, Ross, etc). If he trades those prospects for Donaldson, 2016-18 look a lot worse. Those are the Harper years. And I think it's up for debate that we should have been all-in this year considering the injuries and regression (not that Rizzo could have predicted that).

This team had big bats, their names were Werth, Zimmerman, Rendon, Desmond and Ramos. Donaldson wasn't replacing that kind of production. Playoffs are a crapshoot anyways, those names should have put up better numbers last year, they're just chokers (minus Rendon).

Donaldson is a better hitter than all of them and has been for two years. Desmond has been regressing since 2012. Every other player you mentioned has a history of missing large chunks of the season. This team is in desperate need of someone who can hit.

[Kevrock]

Regressing to what

[BeltwayBaseball]

how does trading for one of the best players in baseball who will be under team control through 2018, make the team worse in 2016? What group of prospects could you come up with that would have equated to the 6.5 WAR that you can probably expect from Donaldson in 2016?
yes, better not add a player because he can't replace the production of 5 players (not even trout is out producing five players combined), not reason to ever upgrade because you can't find a player who can hit 1.000 while belting 80 home runs

Because we were going to have to give up the few solid prospects we have, which are all pitching. By 2017 we could have just Scherzer, Roark, and the prospects. Nix those prospects and we'll have Donaldson and no starting rotation. I'm not saying adding him would have been pointless, but if you can get Yunel Escobar for nothing or Josh Donaldson for a hell of a lot, well, Rizzo's MO has always been the former. I don't know how I feel about going for it or ensuring competitive play the next few years.

If we could give up Ward, Kieboom, Difo and others to get him then that's great, but all of our position prospects suck. We're gonna have a pitching dearth real soon, kinda hard to let go of the big pitching prospects.

[HalfSmokes]

Because we were going to have to give up the few solid prospects we have, which are all pitching. By 2017 we could have just Scherzer, Roark, and the prospects. Nix those prospects and we'll have Donaldson and no starting rotation. I'm not saying adding him would have been pointless, but if you can get Yunel Escobar for nothing or Josh Donaldson for a hell of a lot, well, Rizzo's MO has always been the former. I don't know how I feel about going for it or ensuring competitive play the next few years.

If we could give up Ward, Kieboom, Difo and others to get him then that's great, but all of our position prospects suck. We're gonna have a pitching dearth real soon, kinda hard to let go of the big pitching prospects.

so which group of prospects go you see being worth 6.5 WAR in 2016, even Giolito plus Turner probably won't be worth that (by the way if ensuring competitiveness going forward is the important part someone needs to get on their knees begging Harper to sign an extension because he is out offense)

[BeltwayBaseball]

so which group of prospects go you see being worth 6.5 WAR in 2016, even Giolito plus Turner probably won't be worth that (by the way if ensuring competitiveness going forward is the important part someone needs to get on their knees begging Harper to sign an extension because he is out offense)

We're just talking 2016-18, obviously Harper is crucial to the long-term but by 2019-2029 or whatever, there will be other prospects.

WAR is a useful stat but here I feel it's a little bit apples-to-oranges. We're talking about pitchers vs. a position player, it's not a question of how good Giolito, Turner, Lopez etc will be, it's how bad their replacements would be, in a way that Josh Donaldson cannot make up for. If offensive WAR and defensive runs saved were inversely proportionate to pitcher's performance, the Blue Jays would have a hell of a lot better record than two games over .500, because their offense has been a lot better than their pitching has been bad. Yet Donaldson's defensive wizardry and excellent bat is not enough to overcome R.A. Dickey leaving pitches belt-high to get crushed.

I think there is a point of diminishing returns where you can have all the offense and even defense in the world but if your pitching just sucks then you're dead, I mean look at Colorado. The Orioles were great last year and have been meager this year because of pitching inconsistency. You could say the same of the Nats honestly, the rotation has not been as good as it was supposed to be and it has cost us games, including last night. At the end of the day pitching is still king, and the Nationals rotation that has carried them for four years is about to disappear in just the span of next year. We're gonna need those prospects.

[HalfSmokes]

Is there a position prospect other than turner who you expect to be playing any time soon? Most of the farm depth is in pitching not hitting - hitting is turner and a bunch of guys in A ball you're hoping turn out; I'd give up any of them to know that you have a hitter like Donaldson for the next three season (if we're just talking about 2016-2018 most wouldn't even factor into the conversation).

[Kevrock]

Donaldson just hit a bolt. FIRE WILLIAMS!!!!

[BeltwayBaseball]

Is there a position prospect other than turner who you expect to be playing any time soon? Most of the farm depth is in pitching not hitting - hitting is turner and a bunch of guys in A ball you're hoping turn out; I'd give up any of them to know that you have a hitter like Donaldson for the next three season (if we're just talking about 2016-2018 most wouldn't even factor into the conversation).

That's my exact point, as I said above I would love to flip Ward/Kieboom/Difo and even Cole, all four of those guys for Donaldson. But I don't think that would have been enough, because most of those guys suck. Throw in Victor Robles, Jason Reetz and Pedro Severino, give up all seven of 'em for Donaldson, outfield is locked for a while anyways, just sign Matt Wieters to replace the catching problem.

Toronto gave up three major-league ready players including Brett Lawrie, their every-day 3B and Kendall Graveman, who has a 3.86 ERA in about 100 IP in what is his rookie season. They also gave up Franklin Baretto, a SS who is now Oakland's #1 prospect.

They essentially gave up Joe Ross, A.J. Cole, Michael A Taylor and Trea Turner. That's not an perfect example, but I think it evens out cumulatively. That's a hell of a lot for Donaldson. If we had more depth at middle infield and outfield, maybe you make that trade, if you're willing to sign some free agent pitchers. Otherwise, damn. I think people underestimated the haul Donaldson cost.

[HalfSmokes]

AJ Cole, Michael A Taylor and Trea Turner. That's not an perfect example, but I think it evens out cumulatively. That's a hell of a lot for Donaldson. If we had more depth at middle infield and outfield, maybe you make that trade, if you're willing to sign some free agent pitchers. Otherwise, damn. I think people underestimated the haul Donaldson cost.

I think cole ends up in the pen, and I'd happily give up taylor and turner for Donaldson. I think the window is closing (werth and zimmerman will age and suck in place, the rotation is goign to start desengrating, and there is no longer a savior handing out in AAA) and I'd like to have the strongest team possible for the next few years

[DCFan]

You guys have hijacked this thread into a fantasyland, fake trade paradise. 

[varoadking]

You guys have hijacked this thread into a fantasyland, fake trade paradise. 

Because they need somenting else to talk about.  Williams isn't going anywhere...no matter how badly this team performs this year.

[spidernat]

It's a good thing Matt saved Storen and Paps on Friday--that sure worked out well.

Weren't you one of the ones arguing for saving pitchers for future hypothetical situations that may never materialize?

[tomterp]

Boz isn't happy either.

BTW, here is a major point. The Mets took the Nats very seriously and set their rotation so that their "Big Three" could start all six games vs the Nats in the last 10 days. Coming out of the All-Star break, the  Nats could have set their rotation any way they wanted. They CHOSE not to take the Mets very seriously. They didn't start Scherzer... you know, the $210-million guy... in either start. But they did start a rookie, Joe Ross, is both series. Ross pitched well. But where was Scherzer?

Hindsight is easy. So here's some easy 20-20 hindsight: It's bad managing or bad strategy among all concerned... the manager, coaches, GM, everybody with a voice...  to let your division lead disappear without using your ace in any of six games against the only team in your division with a chance to catch you.

http://live.washingtonpost.com/ask-boswell-20150803.html?hpid=z4