MLB & Division Watching (2011)

[HalfSmokes]

So if Verlander can win the MVP, does that mean that a player can go on a six week tear and than get injured for the rest of the season and win the MVP?  They would have an impact on the same number of games.

he faced 969 batters, if a position player get in 969 at bats in 34 games, then yes give it to him.

[mimontero88]

he faced 969 batters, if a position player get in 969 at bats in 34 games, then yes give it to him.

But again if every other pitcher on the staff was awful he could go 34-0 and the team could still have a losing record.  Therefore, his ability to be valuable to the team is hampered by the fact that his production can only affect 34 games.  A position player has the ability to have a real impact on every game he plays in which, for any MVP candidate, would be the vast majority of the 162 game season.

[HalfSmokes]

But again if every other pitcher on the staff was awful he could go 34-0 and the team could still have a losing record.  Therefore, his ability to be valuable to the team is hampered by the fact that his production can only affect 34 games.  A position player has the ability to have a real impact on every game he plays in which, for any MVP candidate, would be the vast majority of the 162 game season.

and a position player on a team with bad pitchers fan loose games too- how valuable.is a home run in a loss?

[mimontero88]

and a position player on a team with bad pitchers fan loose games too- how valuable.is a home run in a loss?

Right but the position player still has an impact on every game of the season (mostly) whereas a pitcher literally has no control over 4/5 of the season.  How is a player that is not involved in 80% of your season possibly your most valuable?

[HalfSmokes]

Right but the position player still has an impact on every game of the season (mostly) whereas a pitcher literally has no control over 4/5 of the season.  How is a player that is not involved in 80% of your season possibly your most valuable?

A pitcher is the most important player in every game they start- a position player may get five at bats. By your logic, no position player should qualify since they have impact on no more than 80% of the season since.they spend most of the game on defendse or watching teammates bat

[JCA-CrystalCity]

Ellsbury had 732 PAs, 388 put outs, and 6 assists.  1358 innings in the field vs. 240.  Even a work horse like Verlander or Halladay does not win on quantity.  It is an argument about quality and impact.  You can make the case for Verlander, and I would vote for a starting pitcher who had a better year than a position player.  There were 4 - 7 good candidates.  It was not highway robbery that Verlander won.  I could have easily seen a case for Bautista or Cabrera, or even Pedroia or Zobrist, but it was not a case of highway robbery.

[MarquisDeSade]

I don't really believe this argument, but I know some people who get paid for their baseball knowledge do.  I'm sure Harold Reynolds would make this sort of argument.

Can you clarify this statement.  Don't say clutch doesn't exist or I might have to pay this d00d to make an appearance at CCSP and junk punch you:

[MarquisDeSade]

This is true but the point remains that production over 34 games is never going to be as valuable to a team as production over 162 no matter where it comes from.

Tell that to Sandy Koufax.

[JCA-CrystalCity]

Tabler never existed because his performance with the bases loaded defied the laws of physics. If he did exist, his biomechanical capabilities exceeded those of humans.  I believe he was a time-traveling cyborg, but since time travel is impossible, he did not exist.  his records are a figment of human imagination.

Tabler may also have been one of those guys pitchers were not willing to pitch carefully to in bases loaded situations because he rarely homered.

[edit - he walked 11 times in 109 PAs with the bases loaded, but hit 2 HRs.  I have not looked it up, but i'll guess most of those BBs were in the 2d half of his career once he established a reputation for delivering with the bases loaded.  He had 108 RBI in those PAs despite a .489 BA (.505 OBP).  His ISO was .204, so it was not that he was completely a light weight.  2 HRs, 6 2Bs, 3 3Bs.  There are a lot of guys who get RBIs = 80% of PAs in bases loaded situations with BAs .150 lower than Tabler because they were more more powerful hitters, like Pudge, Raul Ibanez and Paul Konerko.  That said, an RBI per PA is quite impressive. 

[Lintyfresh85]

Rays re-sign (steal) Matt Moore to a 5 year 14 million dollar deal. Three club options can make it 8/37.

Yes, he's only got one start in the pros, but the contract shows why the Rays are so damn smart.

[Squab]

Rays re-sign (steal) Matt Moore to a 5 year 14 million dollar deal. Three club options can make it 8/35.
Yes, he's only got one start in the pros, but the contract shows why the Rays are so damn smart.

Wow that is a great move for the Rays. Why can't we do smart things like that?

[HalfSmokes]

Wow that is a great move for the Rays. Why can't we do smart things like that?

because that would require a gm who thinks outside the box not a lifer

[Ali the Baseball Cat]

Bonds got a light slap on the wrist...30 days of house arrest for frigging perjury?!  There are people doing life in Pelican Bay for stealing a loaf of bread.  And I'll bet his house isn't a half bad place to spend 30 days.

[MarquisDeSade]

U CANT TOUCH THIS!!!!

[DPMOmaha]

Bonds got a light slap on the wrist...30 days of house arrest for frigging perjury?!  There are people doing life in Pelican Bay for stealing a loaf of bread.  And I'll bet his house isn't a half bad place to spend 30 days.

[PatsNats28]

Am I the only one who doesn't give a crap about Barry Bonds? Let's say he goes to prison for a year or whatever the prosecutors wanted. Then what? He's not a threat to society either way. Yeah, he probably lied when he said he didn't take steroids, but big freaking deal. There are far more important cases for the government to spend their time and money on.

[MarquisDeSade]

Yeah, he probably lied [under oath] when he said he didn't take steroids, but big freaking deal.

Sure, we really don't need any mechanism to punish people that lie under oath to the courts, right?

[PatsNats28]

Not saying it's not important... but when you consider that the government has limited time and resources, there are much bigger and more important fish to catch than catching Bonds for saying he didn't take steroids.

[blue911]

Not saying it's not important... but when you consider that the government has limited time and resources, there are much bigger and more important fish to catch than catching Bonds for saying he didn't take steroids.

That's silly. The executive branch is tasked with enforcing laws not making them. They are bound by the constitution to uphold all laws. If they feel a law is wrong, it is up to the legislative branch to change/repel the law. People nag all the time about judges making policy, this would be just as bad. Do you really want a Justice Department picking and choosing who they will prosecute and what laws the feel are "worth the money"? 

[Kevrock]

House arrest should be off the table for rich people. Most people pay to travel to a place with a pool, tennis courts.

[Tyler Durden]

That's silly. The executive branch is tasked with enforcing laws not making them. They are bound by the constitution to uphold all laws. If they feel a law is wrong, it is up to the legislative branch to change/repel the law. People nag all the time about judges making policy, this would be just as bad. Do you really want a Justice Department picking and choosing who they will prosecute and what laws the feel are "worth the money"? 

U.S. Attorneys and Assistant U.S. Attorneys pick and choose who they prosecute all the time. 

[blue911]

U.S. Attorneys and Assistant U.S. Attorneys pick and choose who they prosecute all the time. 

Correct but to say cases should be prosecuted because of some monetary issue is silly. If it's a waste of resources, then abolish the law.

[MarquisDeSade]

The point here is that turning a blind eye to purjery kicks the door open for the entire justice system to be invalidated. If theres no mechanism to stop people from lying under oath, why prosecute anyone?  That said, the case against Bonds was a farce and the IRS agent that started all of this bullcrap should be horsewhipped into oblivion for wasting everyones freaking time.

[HalfSmokes]

Correct but to say cases should be prosecuted because of some monetary issue is silly. If it's a waste of resources, then abolish the law.

the sec uses that as an excuse to settle with no fact finding and no admission of guilt all the time

[Tyler Durden]

Correct but to say cases should be prosecuted because of some monetary issue is silly. If it's a waste of resources, then abolish the law.

They often choose to prosecute or not based on much sillier reasons than monetary cost.  Like proving a point, or making a name for themselves by making headlines.

The Bonds prosecution was not purely some high-minded and noble pursuit of justice.