Spring Training Game Threads (2010)

[JCA-CrystalCity]

He gave up one ER in three innings. It would be nice if other pitchers on the staff were as effective. Livo is obviously well past his prime. Unfortunately, that aged vet on a minor-league deal gives a team a better chance to win than most of the arms the failed ownership has assembled in almost 4 years. The fact that Livan Hernandez is actully competing for one of 3 open spots in a rotation shows what a disaster the Lerner/Kasten regime has been.

SSB - one earned run but two runs against.  Can't blame him for an error, but can't absolve him if he gives up 4 runners in an inning and 6 over 3. He deserves the 2 runs more than he deserves a 3.00 ERA.

[Obed_Marsh]

I am amused at how he garbles the words so it sounds like Clifford.

[JMW IV]

now i am starting to get upset.

[Obed_Marsh]

Ron Villone's throwing error is the last straw. I'm off to take a nap. I am sure it will be more entertaining.

[Obed_Marsh]

Lineup looks like they're trying to win one.

If this is trying to win we are in for another 100 loss season. 

[JMW IV]

Rizzo needs to issue an ultimatum: throw strikes or GTFO.

this crap was cute the first few games, but enough is enough already.

[shoeshineboy]

SSB - one earned run but two runs against.  Can't blame him for an error, but can't absolve him if he gives up 4 runners in an inning and 6 over 3. He deserves the 2 runs more than he deserves a 3.00 ERA.

No, I hate walks more than anything. He gets blamed for sucking that first inning. I was just commenting that we have plenty of guys who wish they had that line - several who wish they could actually complete more than an inning before getting yanked due to sucking. Livo is just warming up. Clippard had pretty much the same line in his first inning today. I wish Livo wasn't necessary, but we just don't have reliable arms. Even our best starter wastes so many pitches that his good outings still rely upon 3 innings of bullpen work to complete. We should have acquired other veteran starters. They didn't. So we're stuck with this.

[Lintyfresh85]

I can't believe anyone can defend Livan for getting it done based on how many runs scored.

If you're ok with a 2.00 WHIP then we have very different definitions of getting it done.

[KnorrForYourMoney]

I can't believe anyone can defend Livan for getting it done based on how many runs scored.

If you're ok with a 2.00 WHIP then we have very different definitions of getting it done.

QFMFT

[shoeshineboy]

I can't believe anyone can defend Livan for getting it done based on how many runs scored.

If you're ok with a 2.00 WHIP then we have very different definitions of getting it done.

No, a 2.00 WHIP sucks. His first inning sucked. It was a disaster. He did have two innings that were ok that followed. He's mediocre at best. It would be great to think that he wasn't even under consideration. But he is, because our pitching situation stinks thanks to a crappy ownership.

[blue911]

Is somebody quoting a ST WHIP after 3 innings?

[tomterp]

I can't believe anyone can defend Livan for getting it done based on how many runs scored.

If you're ok with a 2.00 WHIP then we have very different definitions of getting it done.

I defend the performance in part because it was his first outing against live batters this spring.  So I wouldn't get so carried away with the apocolyptic doom predictions yet.  If he's still doing this in his 2nd, 3rd, 4th outings, fine.

[JCA-CrystalCity]

No, I hate walks more than anything.

Yes, judging from your your Avi subscript, I take you don't like walks.  Either that or you like Quentin Tarrantino movies.   I guess I don't view some of the internal options all that bad. I think JD Martin had an effective enough year last year that he can outperform Livo in the rotation. Craig Stammen, too.  If we went north with Lannan - Marquis - Olsen - Stammen - Martin, with perhaps a Strasburg call up on 4/18 bumping Stammen to the pen, then I think the pitching would be OK.  To me, Livo is a sure ticket for lousy starts 40% of the time, stressing your bullpen instead of saving it.  In his 60% quality starts, a fair number of them will be more than 3 runs given up through 6 because of errors with men on.  Not earned runs, but poor pitching nevertheless.  

Next little project - I want to see runs allowed in Livo's QS the past 4 years.

[Edit: quick check - in 2009's 18 QS, he gave up no unearned runs.  2008, there were some games where he gave up multiple unearned runs (4/16 6IP - 3 ER, 5 R), (6/22 7 IP, 1 ER, 3 R), but the more I think about it, it would be unlikely for a manager to leave him in if he's giving up unearned runs but has a nominal QS]

[shoeshineboy]

Is somebody quoting a ST WHIP after 3 innings?

I think he was justing pointing out that the pitching performance was subpar regardless of the outcome. It's right to look at WHIP as an overall indicator as opposed to ERA. Too often people think that it is good enough to escape problems rather than acknowledge that creating them is a problem. Still, it is one outing. And given that one of our "better" relievers completely crapped on the mound, it's hard to focus on Livo's outing as being so crappy.

[Nat of the Living Dead]

If this is trying to win we are in for another 100 loss season. 

Well to have such a dubious honor you have to practice to achieve it-- and they are.

[blue911]

I think he was justing pointing out that the pitching performance was subpar regardless of the outcome. It's right to look at WHIP as an overall indicator as opposed to ERA. Too often people think that it is good enough to escape problems rather than acknowledge that creating them is a problem. Still, it is one outing. And given that one of our "better" relievers completely crapped on the mound, it's hard to focus on Livo's outing as being so crappy.

I look at a pitchers OPS if I want to look at only one statistic. I look at no statistics after one outing in ST.

[JCA-CrystalCity]

Is somebody quoting a ST WHIP after 3 innings?

  Yes, someone did, because it confirmed a fact in his mind.  But let's not forget this guy has had a 1.5 or higher WHIP for the past 4 years, and that is clearly a decline from his prior 4 years.

[blue911]

  Yes, someone did, because it confirmed a fact in his mind.  But let's not forget this guy has had a 1.5 or higher WHIP for the past 4 years, and that is clearly a decline from his prior 4 years.

So he's in the Doug Davis class. Only he hits and field better than Davis. To be honest, I don't think Livan even gets an invite if Detwiler doesn't have surgery.

[shoeshineboy]

Yes, judging from your your Avi subscript, I take you don't like walks.  Either that or you like Quentin Tarrantino movies.   I guess I don't view some of the internal options all that bad. I think JD Martin had an effective enough year last year that he can outperform Livo in the rotation. Craig Stammen, too.  If we went north with Lannan - Marquis - Olsen - Stammen - Martin, with perhaps a Strasburg call up on 4/18 bumping Stammen to the pen, then I think the pitching would be OK.  To me, Livo is a sure ticket for lousy starts 40% of the time, stressing your bullpen instead of saving it.  In his 60% quality starts, a fair number of them will be more than 3 runs given up through 6 because of errors with men on.  Not earned runs, but poor pitching nevertheless. 

Next little project - I want to see runs allowed in Livo's QS the past 4 years.

If you look at the percentage of starts last year where Livo, Lannan, and Stammen, went beyond 6.0 innings, Livo slightly edges Lannan as both had 15 starts where they went beyond 6. Livo will have his share of rough outings, but he will also have plenty of decent outings and burn through innings. I'm all for having one of the kids step up, but so far they haven't. I really don't like having more than one kid in the rotation since you have to assume that guy is going to be taking his lumps while he learns. Filling up those spots with 2 or 3 developing pitchers is a prescription for a long season. I don't blame the kids, I blame the organization for doing so little to field a legitimate rotation. The idea of a major league baseball team is in spring training with 3 open spots in a rotation is pretty astounding.

[tomterp]

Is somebody quoting a ST WHIP after 3 innings?

Sure, why not?  It's easy to spot the bums that way.  No sample size too small if you're trying to fit facts to your argument. Here are some more total bums that should be Pattersoned today:

WHIP 

Lincicum 3.57
Papelbon  3.00
Broxton  2.5
Harang  3.75
Johan Santana 4.20

[KnorrForYourMoney]

You guys are totally bastardizing his argument.

Someone brought out his ERA (lol) to prove that he didn't have that bad of an outing, so he was countering it by saying it wasn't a good outing because of the high WHIP (which led to the unearned run, as it were).

[tomterp]

You guys are totally bastardizing his argument.

Someone brought out his ERA (lol) to prove that he didn't have that bad of an outing, so he was countering it by saying it wasn't a good outing because of the high WHIP (which led to the unearned run, as it were).

My objection is that a number of persons are pointing at his first 3 run outing as proof that he's a washed up bum, as if any pitcher's first 3 innings of the spring is proof of anything. 

[NatsDad14]

Is Livan better than Stammen, Martin, or Mock? I don't think he is. I would rather see them get an opportunity because they have upside.

[shoeshineboy]

Someone brought out his ERA (lol) to prove that he didn't have that bad of an outing, so he was countering it by saying it wasn't a good outing because of the high WHIP (which led to the unearned run, as it were).

Actually, I was stating that that allowing 1 earned run over 3 innings was a line a lot of our other pitchers would have liked to have had not that Livo had some great outing. The point being that despite Livo being past his prime and not being who people would want to put out there, our options are unfortunately limited and the guys trying to show they are deserving of attention wish they could have been as effective over three innings.

[JMW IV]

if Livan makes the team, then it means that our pitching is absolutely atrocious, the Nationals are in deep crap, and we should prepare for another 100 loss season.

mind fact.

neither Livan or Villone should make this team, if Rizzo is REALLY about "playing the best 25 guys who give us a chance to win".

another mind fact.