Wang thread - from first rumor through signing and thereafter....

[tomterp]

See above.  It is BS to not say the AL East, where every offense is above average, is not better offensively than the rest of baseball even after taking out the NYY. 

Not quite true.  Using your data and averaging the 4 years' ranking for each team:

Boston 4.25 
Toronto 14.5
Baltimore 14.5
Tampa  17.5

So, aside from Boston, the other three collectively are average, with Tampa below average.

[Lintyfresh85]

Having the DH makes the AL East a step above any NL division from the get go.

He's had to deal with an extra hitter his entire career.

It's also why you often see a pitcher switch to the NL and see all of his stats increase in positive ways.

[PatsNats28]

JCA, not many of us are saying Wang > Lannan now if any of us. For me at least, I'm saying Wang's peak > where Lannan is right now.

[Lintyfresh85]

Exactly.

Wang at his hardest was a great pitcher... thus he has more talent than Lannan... but who knows what he still has left.

[JCA-CrystalCity]

Not quite true.  Using your data and averaging the 4 years' ranking for each team:

Boston 4.25 
Toronto 14.5
Baltimore 14.5
Tampa  17.5

So, aside from Boston, the other three collectively are average, with Tampa below average.

I had those averages originally in the post.  TB is distorted by one bad year.  Another way to look at that list was that the non-NYY had 5 team seasons in the top 10 and only 2 team seasons in the bottom 10. Looking at those averages, they had one elite (top 5) and 3 in the middle 20 percentile, not including the NYY. I doubt there is another division as strong offensively.  I'll do the work after this post.

[JCA-CrystalCity]

Here are the runs for '05 - '09 for the other divisions, plus '09 for the AL East and '05 - '07 for the NL East.  I'll also include the averages for '05 - '08 (comparable to Wang's peak) and '08 - '09 (the relevant Lannan years).

AL C   05   06   07  08  09  AV-CMW  AV-JL
MIN    25   13   25   4    5      17          4.5
CH-a  13     3   28   6   19     12.5       12.5
Clev    7     2     8   7   12       6          9.5
KC     21    20   27  25  23      23          24
DET   17     8     3   5   15       8           10
                                   DIV  15         12     
AL W
LAA   11    18    6   15   2       10          8.5
SEA   22    21  12   26  28       20          27
OAK    9    16   19  27  14       18         20.5
TEX    3      6    7    1  10         4          5.5
                                   DIV   13          15
NL C
CHIC  20    28  18    2  22        17          12
CIN     4    22   14  23  24        16         23.5
PIT    28    29   23  19  30        25        24.5
HOU   24    25  24   22  27        24        24.5
St L    6     14  22   12  18       13.5        15
MIL    16    27  11   17   9         13         13
                                     DIV  18         18
NL W
AZ    23    15   26   20  20         21         20
COL  14    11    5    18   6          12         12
LAD   26   10    21   24  11         20        17.5
SF    29    24   29   29  26          28        27.5
SD    27    26   20   30  29          26        29.5
                                     DIV    21         19
        05  06   07  08   09
Bal:   15  17   15  11   16            14.5     13.5
Bos:    1   9     4    3    3              4         3
Tam: 12  30   15  13    7             17.5      10
Tor:   8   12   17  21    8             14.5     14.5
                                       DIV   13        10
         05  06   07  08   09
ATL    10   5     9   15    17          10        16
FLA    19  19   13   14    13          16        13.5
PHI      5   4     2    9     4             5         6.5
NYM   18   7    10   8    25            11        16.5
                                       DIV    10        13

So, in CMW's prime, the 4 non-Yankee AL East teams average offense would have been tied for 2d among all divisions, and in the Lannan era, the NL East had the 3d highest average (behind the AL East and the AL Central).  It should not be a surprise that the DH environment results in more runs scores.  However, you can't say that, absent the NYY, the AL East had relatively soft offense. In fact, it still had the best or near best offenses in MLB, on average.

[tomterp]

So, in CMW's prime, the 4 non-Yankee AL East teams average offense would have been tied for 2d among all divisions, and in the Lannan era, the NL East had the 3d highest average (behind the AL East and the AL Central).  It should not be a surprise that the DH environment results in more runs scores.  However, you can't say that, absent the NYY, the AL East had relatively soft offense. In fact, it still had the best or near best offenses in MLB, on average.

I would expect the three AL divisions to be 1, 2 and 3 in runs scored due to the DH.  It's apples to oranges in comparing the two leagues to each other.  I still think that absent the NYY, the AL East had relatively soft offense, and that is relative to the AL East WITH the NYY in it.  If you take out either one of the two top teams, it's much less formidable as a whole.

I don't think this is worth more of your time, it's certainly not high on my list of issues to pursue.  But I have this sense that when it is claimed that Wang succeeded while facing the toughest division in baseball, that those making the claim are simply overlooking the obvious - that Wang never faced the Yankees. 

[Lintyfresh85]

So, in CMW's prime, the 4 non-Yankee AL East teams average offense would have been tied for 2d among all divisions.

I don't think this is worth more of your time, it's certainly not high on my list of issues to pursue.  But I have this sense that when it is claimed that Wang succeeded while facing the toughest division in baseball, that those making the claim are simply overlooking the obvious - that Wang never faced the Yankees. 

So why do the stats bear out the fact that even without the Yankees... the AL East was a tougher league than the NL East?

You seem to be ignoring that fact.

[tomterp]

So why do the stats bear out the fact that even without the Yankees... the AL East was a tougher league than the NL East?

You seem to be ignoring that fact.

Well first you tell me what the adjustment is for DH vs. non DH league. Of course pitching to 9 hitters is going to be tougher than pitching to 8 + a pitcher, and a DH laden lineup is bound to score more runs.  But that rule's in effect for both teams so it's no harder or easier to win in the AL, given you have your own team's DH scoring runs for you.   

But yeah, stats for pitchers look worse in the AL, so what does that prove?  Nothing, without adjusting for DH effect.

[PatsNats28]

Well first you tell me what the adjustment is for DH vs. non DH league. Of course pitching to 9 hitters is going to be tougher than pitching to 8 + a pitcher, and a DH laden lineup is bound to score more runs.  But that rule's in effect for both teams so it's no harder or easier to win in the AL, given you have your own team's DH scoring runs for you.   

But yeah, stats for pitchers look worse in the AL, so what does that prove?  Nothing, without adjusting for DH effect.

Um it shows that Wang's stats are even more impressive. What's the conflict here?

[JCA-CrystalCity]

Tom - as a mod, maybe this stuff about the division strength ought to be broken off into the "out of town score board."  I've got a hunch that our back and forth on this has turned people away from the focus, which should be the potential acquisition of Wang and how it would impact the team.

[CJames0569]

so is this deal pretty much done and they are waiting to formally "annouce" it or is it still up in the air?

[zoom]

St. Louis is no longer interested.  I would think our chances are getting better every time a team drops off.  I think Nero is stalling a bit to get better deals.  But if there is any truth to the '7 - 10 days' comment, the decision should be in the next day or two. 

[Hondo]

Well, they are selling Wang jerseys online...

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/dcsportsbog/2010/02/nats_web_site_selling_wang_jer.html

[houston-nat]

Bill Ladson says the Nationals have definitely agreed to terms with Wang, but that they aren't confirming it publicly.

[Lintyfresh85]

Well, I'm certainly swelling with excitement.

[PatsNats28]

Well according to Ladson, they've officially agreed.

[houston-nat]

Press conference scheduled for Friday at Space Coast Stadium.

[Minty Fresh]

Press conference scheduled for Friday at Space Coast Stadium.

       

[Hondo]

Very good signing Rizzo. 

[imref]

just posted to the Nats official facebook page: http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/Nationals?ref=nf

[Lintyfresh85]

[Peter Abraham] Hey ASSCLOWN, tell me how my ass taste! [/Peter Abraham]

[PANatsFan]

Rizzo The Whiz-o! Sweet sweet signing. I love when one of my favorite players signs with my favorite team. Dunn, Wang, Marquis, Livan #2 (ok so it didn't work out well), Bruney, Capps are all guys I rooted for before they signed in DC.

[The Chief]

Is it too much of a STRETCH to say we could fit WANG in the 2-HOLE?

[PANatsFan]

NOW can we changed the title to "LAC Is Dead, killed by giant WANG signing?"