Author Topic: Wang thread - from first rumor through signing and thereafter....  (Read 13627 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Lintyfresh85

  • Posts: 35152
  • World Champions!!!
Re: Is Wang close to a deal with the Nats?
« Reply #100 on: February 12, 2010, 12:34:07 pm »
I hope Wang doesn't turn out to be another D. Cabrera......cause that would be sooo Wong...... :icon_mrgreen:

Ha. Even if Wang was 25% of his old self... he'd still be better than Cabrera ever was.

Offline HalfSmokes

  • Posts: 21924
Re: Is Wang close to a deal with the Nats?
« Reply #101 on: February 12, 2010, 12:36:12 pm »
Quote
Studies by Jim Andrews and his team have shown that pitchers tend to have an anatomical change called “humeral retroversion” - very simply, their bone changes to accomodate the demands of pitching. Combine changed anatomy with damaged biology and altered mechanics and things get bad quickly.
...

Wang and Brandon Webb are two very interesting cases. They’re similar pitchers, in pitch type at least, and have similar shoulder issues. Al Leiter made the point on MLB Network that a sinkerballer might get some positive effect from shoulder surgery. I have no idea on that and I’m not sure Al does either, but he knows more about sinkers and surgery than I do, so it’s another thing to watch.




so does that mean that nobody really knows if he can actually still pitch?

Offline JMW IV

  • Posts: 11345
  • Name on the Front > Name on The Back
Re: Is Wang close to a deal with the Nats?
« Reply #102 on: February 12, 2010, 01:33:20 pm »
I hope Wang doesn't turn out to be another D. Cabrera......cause that would be sooo Wong...... :icon_mrgreen:

well he was actually good at some point in his career.  Daniel Crabrera was never good.

everyone except Jim Bowden knew he was going to be a disaster from the moment we signed him.

Offline CatsEye

  • Posts: 1655
  • Very weird season -Creepy - What....
Re: Is Wang close to a deal with the Nats?
« Reply #103 on: February 12, 2010, 02:06:15 pm »
well he was actually good at some point in his career.  Daniel Crabrera was never good.
everyone except Jim Bowden knew he was going to be a disaster from the moment we signed him.
              I was just joking...........well, sort of.....maybe....good at some point of his career is nice -but.............can he get back his old form...........it is a risk...........sure hope they have a back-up plan if it doesn't work out..... :icon_question:
                 I'm just saying.............                      :popcorn:

Offline Hondo

  • Posts: 632
Re: Is Wang close to a deal with the Nats?
« Reply #104 on: February 12, 2010, 02:11:24 pm »
What are we risking?  Is he going to cause us not to win the NL east?  Sign him now, hope he works out and sign him to a 3 year deal if he does.

              I was just joking...........well, sort of.....maybe....good at some point of his career is nice -but.............can he get back his old form...........it is a risk...........sure hope they have a back-up plan if it doesn't work out..... :icon_question:
                 I'm just saying.............                      :popcorn:

Offline PANatsFan

  • Posts: 37398
  • dogs in uncensored, nudes in gameday
Re: Is Wang close to a deal with the Nats?
« Reply #105 on: February 12, 2010, 02:13:55 pm »
What are we risking?  Is he going to cause us not to win the NL east?  Sign him now, hope he works out and sign him to a 3 year deal if he does.


He's got arbitration still next year. Any deal includes another year of team control. Guessing the edge the Nats have is a promise of a #3 starter slot. This deal is so much better than Cabrera's; besides, the key is getting him healthy and getting his motion back to where it was, right? That's different than fixing Cabrera's brain. The big time incentives here are a no brainer.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 45506
  • Platoon - not just a movie, a baseball obsession
Re: Is Wang close to a deal with the Nats?
« Reply #106 on: February 12, 2010, 02:38:58 pm »
can he get back his old form...........it is a risk...........sure hope they have a back-up plan if it doesn't work out:popcorn:

It is a minimal risk more than worth taking. 

What we need to keep in mind is that we are dividing up about 930 - 970 starter innings next year.  You can start with the 400 IP that we anticipate from Lannan and Marquis.  Olsen is a question mark but when healthy can be a #3 starter in a real rotation.  If you pencil him in for 90 or so innings, then you want a #3 or better starter type who you can also pencil in for about 90 IP.  That is Wang.  Sure it is possible both could turn out to give you zero, but you'd have to be unlucky for that to happen. 

After that 580 IP, you then divide about 350 -400 IP remaining.  Pencil in a low end of about 50 of those to Saint Stephen, and you are talking about 300 - 350 IP among Detwiler, Stammen, Balester, Mock, Martin, Batista, and a recovering JZ.  Martin and Batista are your worst case options, and both should be able to beat 5.00 ERA.  Last year, we ended up getting 300 IP out of Mock, Stammen, Detwiler, and Balester.  You would hope that they would progress a bit and that one or two could show that they are permanent pieces. 

You are snake bit for a yearr if you get nothing out of Wang and Olsen, none of the bottom of the rotation pans out, or if your 2 horses pull up lame.  Sure it can happen, but there are only so many ways you can cover yourself.  I'd much rather take a chance on Olsen and Wang being healthy enough for half a season and some of the bottom of the rotation guys panning out than bring in some known mediocrity like Washburn or Livan.

Offline cmdterps44

  • Posts: 15551
  • Future
Re: Is Wang close to a deal with the Nats?
« Reply #107 on: February 12, 2010, 02:51:17 pm »
You are snake bit for a yearr if you get nothing out of Wang and Olsen, none of the bottom of the rotation pans out, or if your 2 horses pull up lame.  Sure it can happen, but there are only so many ways you can cover yourself.  I'd much rather take a chance on Olsen and Wang being healthy enough for half a season and some of the bottom of the rotation guys panning out than bring in some known mediocrity like Washburn or Livan.

Lets hope this doesn't happen. It would be great to see Olsen make a great comeback and then mid may Wang does the same. That's 2 solid #3 guys right there. Strasburg, Marquis, Lannan, Wang, Olsen/Zimmermann. That goes from a mediocre at best rotation to a pretty good rotation.

Offline Lintyfresh85

  • Posts: 35152
  • World Champions!!!
Re: Is Wang close to a deal with the Nats?
« Reply #108 on: February 12, 2010, 02:52:43 pm »
If Wang actually made a full comeback, I think he's a lot more talented than Marquis or Lannan ever will/have been.... and is easily a #1 for the Nats (#2-3 for a good team).

Offline Hondo

  • Posts: 632
Re: Is Wang close to a deal with the Nats?
« Reply #109 on: February 12, 2010, 03:18:21 pm »
I wouldnt go that far.  Lannan has been pretty darn good (3.91 career ERA) and I think he will continue to improve.

If Wang actually made a full comeback, I think he's a lot more talented than Marquis or Lannan ever will/have been.... and is easily a #1 for the Nats (#2-3 for a good team).

Offline Lintyfresh85

  • Posts: 35152
  • World Champions!!!
Re: Is Wang close to a deal with the Nats?
« Reply #110 on: February 12, 2010, 03:35:38 pm »
Yeah... but take a look at Wang's numbers.. and he was in the AL, in the toughest division which makes his numbers even more impressive.

I'll gladly have both starting 30 games a year for the Nats though, no problem.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 45506
  • Platoon - not just a movie, a baseball obsession
Re: Is Wang close to a deal with the Nats?
« Reply #111 on: February 12, 2010, 04:45:47 pm »
Wang's 05 - 08 ERA was better than that in a tougher ballpark and division (265 ER / 628.2 IP = 3.79 ERA).  Until his injuries, he was always much better than Lannan at suppressing HRs. Wang's career HR/9 of .55, including '09 whenit was 1.50; Lannan - 1.02 career. 

Offline tomterp

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 33885
  • Hell yes!
Re: Is Wang close to a deal with the Nats?
« Reply #112 on: February 12, 2010, 04:48:05 pm »
Yeah... but take a look at Wang's numbers.. and he was in the AL, in the toughest division which makes his numbers even more impressive.

How many times did he face the toughest lineup in the AL East, the Yankees?   

Certainly an Orioles pitcher has it a lot tougher.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 45506
  • Platoon - not just a movie, a baseball obsession
Re: Is Wang close to a deal with the Nats?
« Reply #113 on: February 12, 2010, 07:31:23 pm »
How many times did he face the toughest lineup in the AL East, the Yankees?   


Well, his good years were when Manny and Papi were on steroids, so you have to be impressed at his home run againt numbers . . .

Offline JMW IV

  • Posts: 11345
  • Name on the Front > Name on The Back
Re: Is Wang close to a deal with the Nats?
« Reply #114 on: February 12, 2010, 07:47:04 pm »
How many times did he face the toughest lineup in the AL East, the Yankees?   

Certainly an Orioles pitcher has it a lot tougher.

please tell me you aren't sticking up for The Crab.

Offline Hondo

  • Posts: 632
Re: Is Wang close to a deal with the Nats?
« Reply #115 on: February 12, 2010, 11:19:17 pm »
exactly, he might have been better than lannan, but not "much better"

How many times did he face the toughest lineup in the AL East, the Yankees?   

Certainly an Orioles pitcher has it a lot tougher.

Offline Lintyfresh85

  • Posts: 35152
  • World Champions!!!
Re: Is Wang close to a deal with the Nats?
« Reply #116 on: February 13, 2010, 01:12:12 am »
Yes, yes he is.

His numbers are superior to Lannan in a tougher league. Not much to argue about there.

And I love Lannan. He's all this team has had in pitching these last couple of years.

Offline cmdterps44

  • Posts: 15551
  • Future
Re: Is Wang close to a deal with the Nats?
« Reply #117 on: February 13, 2010, 02:48:42 am »
exactly, he might have been better than lannan, but not "much better"


As much as I hate rooting for a [ex]Yankee, he is 'much' better. I mean he's [Wang] had run support and defense up the ass (positive words) but he still managed to do work on his own instead of mostly being a contact hitter which Lannan has done pretty well for himself on a crappy defensive team. (not to mention their unclutch run support.)

Offline Minty Fresh

  • Posts: 20386
  • BOOM!
Re: Is Wang close to a deal with the Nats?
« Reply #118 on: February 13, 2010, 09:22:21 am »
Yeah... but take a look at Wang's numbers.. and he was in the AL, in the toughest division which makes his numbers even more impressive.


I don't put much stock in that.  He pitched for the lead dog in the American League east.  The only really tough team he ever faced in that division was Boston.  Baltimore?  Toronto?  Pre-2008 Tampa? 

Offline Minty Fresh

  • Posts: 20386
  • BOOM!
Re: Is Wang close to a deal with the Nats?
« Reply #119 on: February 13, 2010, 09:23:27 am »
exactly, he might have been better than lannan, but not "much better"


You're just being a homer.

Offline PatsNats28

  • Posts: 8522
Re: Is Wang close to a deal with the Nats?
« Reply #120 on: February 13, 2010, 10:29:16 am »
You're just being a homer.

This. Wang was much better than Lannan.

Offline PANatsFan

  • Posts: 37398
  • dogs in uncensored, nudes in gameday
Re: Is Wang close to a deal with the Nats?
« Reply #121 on: February 13, 2010, 10:32:12 am »
This. Wang was much better than Lannan.

Kennedy had to be a big factor in convincing Wang to come.

Aw, damnit.

Offline tomterp

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 33885
  • Hell yes!
Re: Is Wang close to a deal with the Nats?
« Reply #122 on: February 13, 2010, 11:15:13 am »
I don't put much stock in that.  He pitched for the lead dog in the American League east.  The only really tough team he ever faced in that division was Boston.  Baltimore?  Toronto?  Pre-2008 Tampa? 

Exactly my point.  Sure, Wang's been a really good pitcher (for two years, really) but the "toughest division" thing is BS when you pitch for one of the two tough teams in the division.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 45506
  • Platoon - not just a movie, a baseball obsession
Re: Is Wang close to a deal with the Nats?
« Reply #123 on: February 13, 2010, 12:05:06 pm »
I don't put much stock in that.  He pitched for the lead dog in the American League east.  The only really tough team he ever faced in that division was Boston.  Baltimore?  Toronto?  Pre-2008 Tampa? 

TB, Toronto, and BAL were average, and Boston was top 5, in run scoring from '05 -08.  That makes for a tough division.  However, let's not disrespect the offenses in the NL East.  Both Lannan and Wang pitched to good offenses from divisional opponents. 

Here is where the other 4 AL East teams ranked in MLB from 2005 - 2008 in run scored:
        2005  2006   2007  2008   
Bal:     15      17      15      11     
Bos:      1       9       4        3       
Tam:   12      30      15       13   
Tor:      8      12      17      21     

What may be underrated is the quality of the NL East offenses.  Perhaps that is because they faced the Nats pitching, but, for comparison, let's look at the non-Nats NL East teams in 2009 and 2008:
        2009  2008
ATL       17     15
FLA       13    14
PHI        4       9
NYM      25      8

East coast baseball - where everyone is above average.  To heck with flyover country.

To me, the big difference is Wang's sinker was better at preventing homers.   That can't be denied.  And he was doing it in a ballpark that was very tough on RHP. But looking at ERA+, which adjusts ERA for the ballpark, the difference in HR did not really reflect itself in earned runs allowed relative to other pitchers performance in those ballparks. Wang's ERA+ from '05 to '08: 105, 124, 122, 109.  Lannan: '08 - 110, '09 - 108.  Looks pretty darn close.   

If you want to argue there is a huge difference between these two, you need to believe in things like FIP, where HR rates are very important, to see a big difference in quality (Wang - '05 - '08: 4.20, 3.91, 3.79, 3.74; Lannan - '08 - '09: 4.79, 4.70).  xFIP normalizes the HR/9, so the gap disappears ( Wang ~ 4.2 consistently, Lannan '08 - 4.28, '09 - 4.79).  Another measure that takes account of the quality of the batted ball in play as well as the defense independent stats that FIP accounts for is tERA.  There Wang also has a clear advantage WHEN HEALTHY - Lannan ~ 5.1 for '08 & '09, Wang ~4 for '50 - '07 & 4.5 for '08).  You have to believe the advanced stats are a better measure of pitching quality than ERA in order to say there is a big difference between a healthy Wang and Lannan, or else place a lot of faith in Wang's record of preventing HRs in a tough environment.

I've gone back and forth as I have been looking at this, and hope this will not cause anyone's eyes to bleed, but I think in order to say "Wang is much better than Lannan," you have to think (A) he will get back to the way he was, and (B) his skills at preventing harmful contact are more real than Lannan's.  I'm not sure about either of those statements. 

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 45506
  • Platoon - not just a movie, a baseball obsession
Re: Is Wang close to a deal with the Nats?
« Reply #124 on: February 13, 2010, 12:08:32 pm »
Exactly my point.  Sure, Wang's been a really good pitcher (for two years, really) but the "toughest division" thing is BS when you pitch for one of the two tough teams in the division.

See above.  It is BS to not say the AL East, where every offense is above average, is not better offensively than the rest of baseball even after taking out the NYY.  It is also BS to deny that the Nats face a similar challenge when they go against the rest of the NL East.