Bullpen Discussion

[KnorrForYourMoney]

It's a complete waste of my time to even attempt to discuss this with any of you.

...is what you said after I made the point about Bergmann having a history of putting together good partial seasons but never keeping it together.  It wasn't specifically directed toward me, but it followed my post, which seemed to indicate you thought it had no merit.

[JMW IV]

Bergmann is not an average reliever. Sportsline ranks all relievers in baseball by a variety of common pitching stats.

Just for perspective, MacDougal is ranked 34th which would put him as a high-end #2 reliever.

Burnett is ranked 59th which would put him as a low-end #2 reliever/high-end #3 reliever.

Clippard is 87th which would put him as a low end #3/high end #4 reliever.

Sounds fair, yes?

Bergmann is ranked 389th which would have him as the 13th reliever on a team's MLB depth chart. but you can only carry 7-8..

yeah, you'll have to link that one.

[Nathan]

God I love this board

everyone is basically for the same thing, calling up what we have in the minors and seeing if they are an improvement over the current guys in September, but yet everyone is arguing as if everyone else is against the idea. 

so is anyone actually against checking out some minor league pen arms come September?

[The Chief]

Bergmann is not an average reliever. Sportsline ranks all relievers in baseball by a variety of common pitching stats.

You really are dense.

I was making fun of you.  All you could put up over and over again was "OMG 5.8 ERA!"

I was mocking the absurdity of your weak argument and singular (poorly chosen) stat.

Go to bed.

...is what you said

And I was absolutely right.

Good night.

[sportsfan882]

yeah, you'll have to link that one.

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/playerrankings/regularseason/RP

the rankings seem very accurate.

top 10:
1. Ryan Franklin
2. Mariano Rivera
3. Joe Nathan
4. Jonathan Papelbon
5. Heath Bell
6. Huston Street
7. Francisco Cordero
8. David Aardsma
9. Johnathan Broxton
10. Andrew Bailey

[JMW IV]

added bonus of bringing the kids up Sept. 1st.

while the games won't be playoff-relevant for us, they will be for many of our opponents. meaning we'll see how they handle big time pressure situations vs good teams that are fighting for their playoff lives.

as opposed to just seeing them against ST Scrub Lineup #45787638857

[JMW IV]

God I love this board

everyone is basically for the same thing, calling up what we have in the minors and seeing if they are an improvement over the current guys in September, but yet everyone is arguing as if everyone else is against the idea. 

so is anyone actually against checking out some minor league pen arms come September?

I believe the argument is about whether we should do this *at the expense* of Jason Bergmann.

i don't think anyone disagrees that Villone and Sosa should GTFOH. but the argument is about whether Bergmann should.

[PC]

none of the prospects that I have suggested have been rushed. these guys have dominated at every level...

...of the minors.

Are you seriously proposing that we go into 2010 with three or four current minor league relievers in the bullpen?  Whereas if you go in with ONE, you still have the others to call up, later in the season, if Bergmann is really stinking up the joint, even worse than he is now or if the one you bring up needs more "seasoning".

They don't spontaneously combust if they're playing in Syracuse.  Nothing is lost by keeping them there.  Yes, they could get hurt in the minors but they could also get hurt in Washington.  Mature franchises don't rush their farm system.

We're in a stronger position if players are our fallback position because the players ahead of them would actually have to fail before we...fallback.  If you start the season with the current minor leaguers with the Nationals and THEY fail, which is likely if you start the season with three or four of them, it's likely that one or two of them will need to be go back down.  That's not uncommon for players when they're first exposed to the majors.  If that's the case, at that point, you're in your second level of minor leaguers or Mike Rizzo would be trolling the streets looking for Julian Tavarez.  

[sportsfan882]

You really are dense.

I was making fun of you.  All you could put up over and over again was "OMG 5.8 ERA!"

I was mocking the absurdity of your weak argument and singular (poorly chosen) stat.

Go to bed.

And I was absolutely right.

Good night.

that is why I looked up the sportsline's rankings which rank on more than just freaking ERA.

the rankings make perfect freaking sense to me.

all of the Nats' relievers' current rankings:

MacDougal: 34th (high end #2 reliever)
Burnett: 59th (low end #2/high end #3 reliever)
Clippard: 87th (low end #3/high end #4 reliever)
Villone: 174th (#6 reliever)
Sosa: 327th (N/A)
Rivera: 356th (N/A)
Bergmann: 389th (N/A)

[PC]

If we bring them up *now* when we have *nothing to play for*, we will have *time* to figure out whether they are ready or not, *now*, rather than doing it in *June of next season*.

A month isn't enough time.  Remember Mike Hinckley?

[JMW IV]

Ideally, no.  Satisfied?

yes.

Now let me ask you this - If Rizzo can't bring in outside talent of equal or better quality for a reasonable price (in terms of talent or payroll), and doesn't see anything he likes better in the minors, do you think Bergmann should be cut just because?

If Rizzo doesn't see anything in our Farm System worth taking a chance on and he doesn't think he can get a comparable replacement elsewhere, then yes, he should keep Bergmann. I think your scenario if highly far-fetched, but sure. You can have that one.

Realistically, I think we should let just Bergmann go(or demote him if we are really that emotionally attached to him). He may not be as bad as SF claims, but he's bad. He is a dime-a-dozen below average middle reliever. We should have no problem acquiring another pitcher that is better, or at least as quality as Bergmann is. Either through a Prospect earning the spot, or from a cheap FA signing.

[JMW IV]

A month isn't enough time.  Remember Mike Hinckley?

so how long is enough time?

and when is the right time for the prospects to "prove" themselves?

and remember, Minor League stats don't mean crap. so don't say "AA/AAA".

ok, we go with your plan, and we only bring up ONE reliever prospect. how do we fix the rest of the crappy-ass bullpen? or do we just say "freak it" and stay with the Bergmanns of the world?

[sportsfan882]

...of the minors.

Are you seriously proposing that we go into 2010 with three or four current minor league relievers in the bullpen?  Whereas if you go in with ONE, you still have the others to call up, later in the season, if Bergmann is really stinking up the joint, even worse than he is now or if the one you bring up needs more "seasoning".

They don't spontaneously combust if they're playing in Syracuse.  Nothing is lost by keeping them there.  Yes, they could get hurt in the minors but they could also get hurt in Washington.  Mature franchises don't rush their farm system.

We're in a stronger position if players are our fallback position because the players ahead of them would actually have to fail before we...fallback.  If you start the season with the current minor leaguers with the Nationals and THEY fail, which is likely if you start the season with three or four of them, it's likely that one or two of them will need to be go back down.  That's not uncommon for players when they're first exposed to the majors.  If that's the case, at that point, you're in your second level of minor leaguers or Mike Rizzo would be trolling the streets looking for Julian Tavarez.   

I want the best pitchers pitching in the Majors for the Nationals, not rotting in AAA.

What is so special about Bergmann? He stinks. Give me anyone off the street and they could perform as well as he has.

I am not proposing that we go into next year with 4 minor league relievers because I believe we should sign/trade for at least 2-3 quality relief arms. however, we definitely should give some of these minor league guys a chance to earn a job in the Spring and we may as well get an early look at them now. they aren't going to win a job in September but they can get their feet wet and make a first impression.

I am pissed that we didn't claim Jon Rauch who the Twins just got for a PTBNL. We had first dibs. His option was already exercised for '10 so we could have had him next year too for a few million. Rauch has been much better since a rough start to the season. He would have flourished back in D.C.

[PC]

Realistically, I think we should let just Bergmann go(or demote him if we are really that emotionally attached to him). He may not be as bad as SF claims, but he's bad. He is a dime-a-dozen below average middle reliever. We should have no problem acquiring another pitcher that is better, or at least as quality as Bergmann is. Either through a Prospect earning the spot, or from a cheap FA signing.

You say that but JESUS COLOME got signed by another team!  JESUS FREAKING COLOME, the worst of the worst of the worst, got picked up by another team.  In that kind of market, GMs will be beating...down Bergmann's doors or anything else Jason wants beaten to sign him to a contract!

[JMW IV]

You say that but JESUS COLOME got signed by another team!  JESUS FREAKING COLOME, the worst of the worst of the worst got picked up by another team.  In that kind of market, GMs will be beating...down Bergmann's doors or anything else Jason wants beaten to sign him to a contract!

so you are...proposing that we keep him.....because we're scared he'll sign with someone else?

I've heard that logic before......

just so I am clear. you are NOT arguing that Bergmann doesn't suck. you are arguing that yes, Bergmann sucks, but we should keep him anyway?

[sportsfan882]

You say that but JESUS COLOME got signed by another team!  JESUS FREAKING COLOME, the worst of the worst of the worst, got picked up by another team.  In that kind of market, GMs will be beating...down Bergmann's doors or anything else Jason wants beaten to sign him to a contract!

who cares? Colome stunk for Milwaukee and then got hurt.

Hinckley and Shell have pitched in the Minors all year after we dumped them.

Tavarez still hasn't found a job.

Ledezma is in freaking AA with another team.

it's not like these bums that we cut are turning into stars elsewhere.

[PC]

so you are...proposing that we keep him.....because we're scared he'll sign with someone else?

I've heard that logic before......

No, I'm proposing that we keep him because we MUST REPLACE RON VILLONE AND JORGE SOSA before him and the market is thin.  The fact that Jesus Freaking Colome isn't pumping gas somewhere is all the proof that I need.

And yes, he sucks but Villone and Sosa suck more and the market is thin.

[KnorrForYourMoney]

You say that but JESUS COLOME got signed by another team!  JESUS FREAKING COLOME, the worst of the worst of the worst, got picked up by another team.  In that kind of market, GMs will be beating...down Bergmann's doors or anything else Jason wants beaten to sign him to a contract!

Do you think we have no chance of getting Brandon Lyon?  Juan Cruz signed with the freaking Royals.

[PC]

who cares? Colome stunk for Milwaukee and then got hurt.

Hinckley and Shell have pitched in the Minors all year after we dumped them.

Tavarez still hasn't found a job.

Ledezma is in freaking AA with another team.

it's not like these bums that we cut are turning into stars elsewhere.

...but they got signed and they're not available!

And Bergmann's better than ALL of them!

[Lintyfresh85]

I was a Bergmann backer up until like a week ago because his performance has tanked. He doesn't know how to pitch and will never do so.

Sample size, genius.

1 bad week = death in SF's world.

What about all the weeks prior, did he just luck out? Or are you going to act like they never happened and that he always didn't "know how to pitch and will never do so."

[Nat of the Living Dead]

Bergmann needs to be flushed with the rest of the sewage during the winter. Period.

[PANatsFan]

I'm not reading 5 pages of this nagfest.

Rivera was historically awful earlier in the season, I was on his case big time. Have any of you actually watched him pitch lately, because he's been solid, getting groundballs like the old days. He used to have the best HR rate in baseball.

Klej is maybe not a closer, but he's not a #6 guy. Get real. What is this team, the Red Sox? He's a 7th/8th inning guy. Sosa and Villone should be playing for the Southern Maryland Crabs.

[PatsNats28]

  at you guys. You really think we're going to magically find 4 reliever FAs, first of all willing to come here, second of all, actually good enough for the level that you're thinking of? Think of it this way: Use SF's list (although I wouldn't). You keep all those guys, and then let's say you get someone who's #75. Then you cut the worst guy of the 'pen. Then you get someone who's #100. Same thing. And you go like that... because otherwise, this is what's likely to happen:

Nats get rid of every RP except for Clip, Klej, and Burnett. They tell us they'll try to get RPs. They end up getting one in a Joe Beimel-esque situation (like in March or something). And we call up the rooks, and odds are they get deer-in-the-headlights and we're screwed for another year.

Also, I may be misinterpreting Chief but I never saw him say that we shouldn't call up those relievers. We do have a 40 man roster in September, we can keep both types of guys and see how they perform before cutting the vets ASAP.

[PANatsFan]

PatsNats is right. Also, Klej will get a few million in arbitration next year, so bet that he starts the season as closer.

[Nat of the Living Dead]

They end up getting one in a Joe Beimel-esque situation (like in March or something). And we call up the rooks, and odds are they get deer-in-the-headlights and we're screwed for another year.

I'd rather see the team play the odds game rather than settle on proven failure like Bergmann, Villone, Sosa. etc. This team isn't going to get any better by sitting on it's hands.