Bullpen Discussion

[JMW IV]

Chief, stop nagfighting with SF and answer my damn question at the bottom of this post:

http://www.wnff.net/index.php/topic,15237.msg464393.html#msg464393

[The Chief]

Chief, stop nagfighting with SF and answer my damn question at the bottom of this post:

http://www.wnff.net/index.php/topic,15237.msg464393.html#msg464393

Ever seen "Memento?"  That.  He doesn't remember anything beyond 15 minutes ago, ever.

[Nat of the Living Dead]

[The Chief]

Why can't we have 7 good, solid relievers that get the job done?

Why can't I have a million dollars?

[sportsfan882]

I don't have time to quote every time you've ever completely disregarded ERA as a stat, SF.

then freak the stats. how about how they have pitched.

Clippard has great stuff but tends to be wild at time. You can't teach stuff but you can improve control.

Bergmann's stuff sucks ass and his location is pathetic. He is unfixable.

[The Chief]

it may not be what YOU meant, but it is the general mentality of a lot of posters on this board spidernat in regards to "prospects".

Fixed.

[PC]

I'm not a Bergmann backer at all.  Like I posted in yesterday's game thread, I'm an ultra-realist and I know that, realistically, we can't replace Villone AND Sosa AND Bergmann all in the same offseason.  We certainly can't do it with veterans.  Do you really want 3/7 of your bullpen to be "unknown" quantities or 4/7, more than half, if we get rid of Rivera?  No team should go into a season with that level of uncertainty.

Keeping Clippard, Burnett and MacDougal are the easy options.

[sportsfan882]

Why can't I have a million dollars?

you can. anyone can if they work hard enough or get lucky enough.

we can have a good bullpen 1-7 if Rizzo works hard enough on it whether that is signing free agent, making trades, promoting minor leaguers, or a combo of all 3.

[JMW IV]

Why can't I have a million dollars?

that's a rather ridiculous answer to a legitimate question.

what exactly is wrong with trying to assemble a bullpen full of quality relievers instead of reserving slots in the bullpen for crappy pitchers?

just want to note, I'm thinking about next season in regards to the bullpen. you guys are thinking about tomorrow.

[sportsfan882]

I'm not a Bergmann backer at all.  Like I posted in yesterday's game thread, I'm an ultra-realist and I know that, realistically, we can't replace Villone AND Sosa AND Bergmann all in the same offseason.  We certainly can't do it with veterans.  Do you really want 3/7 of your bullpen to be "unknown" quantities or 4/7, more than half, if we get rid of Rivera?  No team should go into a season with that level of uncertainty.

Keeping Clippard, Burnett and MacDougal are the easy options.

signing a proven FA reliever does not count as a known quantity?

what about trading for one?

if you want a proven commodity why don't you want us to call up some of these minor league relievers in September so we can see first hand whether they are proven commodities or not?

[Nathan]

that's a rather ridiculous answer to a legitimate question.

what exactly is wrong with trying to assemble a bullpen full of quality relievers instead of reserving slots in the bullpen for crappy pitchers?

just want to note, I'm thinking about next season in regards to the bullpen. you guys are thinking about tomorrow.

Exactly, call some of them up NOW (or Sept) to see how they do.  We know what Villone, Sosa, and Bergmann can do.  See if we have any legitimate replacements in the farm NOW so we know what needs done in the offseason.  Villone and Sosa first, then if we find legitimate replacements, look to replace Bergmann.  The season is over for us, this can be a prime time to give some minor league players a look.  Not player like Pete Orr, either.

[spidernat]

You can't tell me that Jason Bergmann is much worse that the 7th pitcher in most teams' bullpens!  The benefit of bringing back in that position is that he's a known quantity.  If you don't bring him back, you're going to have to find somebody else, who'll be just as bad, to fill the same position.

This is true but didn't some people suggest he should be setting up or maybe even closing? 

[JMW IV]

I'm not a Bergmann backer at all.  Like I posted in yesterday's game thread, I'm an ultra-realist and I know that, realistically, we can't replace Villone AND Sosa AND Bergmann all in the same offseason.  We certainly can't do it with veterans.  Do you really want 3/7 of your bullpen to be "unknown" quantities or 4/7, more than half, if we get rid of Rivera?  No team should go into a season with that level of uncertainty.

Keeping Clippard, Burnett and MacDougal are the easy options.

at this point, I really don't think it matters it the quantities are "known" or not. our "known" quantities SUCK. the veterans SUCK. and whether it is "known" suck or "unknown" suck, it is still bad.

it's time to try something new. like finding pitchers who don't SUCK.

and how will our "unknown" quantities ever become "known" if we are batcrap deathly afraid to give them a shot because we are so scared of stuff that is "unknown"?

why the freak are we stocking all this pitching, if we're going to be too damn scared to use it?

I mean, i understand where you are coming from. you'd rather have someone who you *know* sucks, rather than someone you *don't know* sucks.

but I'd rather just try to find people who don't suck. I don't care if they are rookies or veterans.

[The Chief]

we can have a good bullpen 1-7 if Rizzo works hard enough on it whether that is signing free agent, making trades, promoting minor leaguers, or a combo of all 3.

Simply put, no we can't.  You're living in a dreamworld.

that's a rather ridiculous answer to a legitimate question.

No it isn't.

what exactly is wrong with trying to assemble a bullpen full of quality relievers instead of reserving slots in the bullpen for crappy pitchers?

Who said anything about reserving spots?  I swear none of you are even paying attention to who posted what.  You just put together all the posts of everyone who disagrees with you and treat it as one poster.

just want to note, I'm thinking about next season in regards to the bullpen. you guys are thinking about tomorrow.

I'll give a shot at what you guys are repeatedly doing:

"OMG YOU WANT TO CUT THE ENTIRE BULLPEN BEFORE WE EVEN KNOW IF WE HAVE ANY BETTER OR EVEN COMPARABLE REPLACEMENTS???"

[spidernat]

:spidernat batsignal:

until those guys get called up and suck, then SF will be saying the same crap about them

You've learned well my young apprentice.

[JMW IV]

Exactly, call some of them up NOW (or Sept) to see how they do.  We know what Villone, Sosa, and Bergmann can do.  See if we have any legitimate replacements in the farm NOW so we know what needs done in the offseason.  Villone and Sosa first, then if we find legitimate replacements, look to replace Bergmann.  The season is over for us, this can be a prime time to give some minor league players a look.  Not player like Pete Orr, either.

that's what I'm saying. but PC and Chief seem to be vehemently against playing anyone who isn't a "known" quantity *this season*. why? what is there to lose at this point?  for the rest of *this* season, what is there to gain from keeping any one of Bergmann, Villone, or Sosa?

[The Chief]

I'd just like to point out that September is 4 days away.  I don't know why you're all crapting bricks over the fact that the entire pen isn't in the unemployment line right this very minute.

[The Chief]

that's what I'm saying. but PC and Chief seem to be vehemently against playing anyone who isn't a "known" quantity *this season*. why? what is there to lose at this point?  for the rest of *this* season, what is there to gain from keeping any one of Bergmann, Villone, or Sosa?

Fixed that for you.  Even PC is questionable as I doubt he's actually advocating what you think he is, but I'm not paying much attention to him since we're on the same side for the moment.

[JMW IV]

I'll give a shot at what you guys are repeatedly doing:

"OMG YOU WANT TO CUT THE ENTIRE BULLPEN BEFORE WE EVEN KNOW IF WE HAVE ANY BETTER OR EVEN COMPARABLE REPLACEMENTS???"

ok, Chief. so then how are we supposed to find comparable replacements, if we are not willing to give anyone else a shot at it?

[The Chief]

ok, Chief. so then how are we supposed to find comparable replacements, if we are not willing to give anyone else a shot at it?

Show me where anyone ever said this, especially me.

[sportsfan882]

freak it then. let's keep Bergmann, Sosa, Villone, Kensing, Rivera and stick with them next year just because they are "known commodities" and we know what to expect from them.

what's funny is that I know and fully trust Rizzo to do a great job overhauling our pen in the off-season. He hates Bergmann so there is zero chance Bergmann comes back unless he wants to accept a AAA deal. Rizzo knows what he is doing.

[JMW IV]

I don't know why you're all crapting bricks over the fact that the entire pen isn't in the unemployment line right this very minute.

I'm not. 4 days from now, neither of the three should be employed by this team. that's my whole point. we should be calling up a whole host of relievers and they should be auditioning for 2010.

I don't know why you are crapting bricks because people aren't agreeing with you about Bergmann.

[spidernat]

There are only 3 guys worth keeping: Burnett, MacDougal, and Clippard and they are all back-end of the bullpen options who should have to earn a spot next Spring.

This is a major problem we seem to have with our bullpen AND starting arms.

[PC]

signing a proven FA reliever does not count as a known quantity?

what about trading for one?

if you want a proven commodity why don't you want us to call up some of these minor league relievers in September so we can see first hand whether they are proven commodities or not?

I have no problem with signing a free agent but he would replace Sosa, Villone would move down to worst and Bergmann would move down to second worst.  

And I have no problem making a trade for a reliever.  So that player would take Villone's place on the roster and Bergmann would move down to worst...but he'd still be on the roster.

If then, you want to bring up ONE minor league reliever to take Bergmann's spot, I'd have no problem with that but we'd have to do the first two steps first and, again, other teams are going to be looking for bullpen help, along with us.  Why would step one's free agent sign here instead of somewhere else?  And why would step two's team trade with us instead of some other team?  If we didn't have Sosa (step one) and Villone (step two) it would be much easier to get rid of Bergmann.

[KnorrForYourMoney]

I'm not a Bergmann backer at all.  Like I posted in yesterday's game thread, I'm an ultra-realist and I know that, realistically, we can't replace Villone AND Sosa AND Bergmann all in the same offseason.  We certainly can't do it with veterans.  Do you really want 3/7 of your bullpen to be "unknown" quantities or 4/7, more than half, if we get rid of Rivera?  No team should go into a season with that level of uncertainty.

Keeping Clippard, Burnett and MacDougal are the easy options.

Who says we can't sign free agents?  Bring in one or two outside guys.  Relievers are cheap and abundant.

Reserve two spots for a competition: Storen, Wilkie, Novoa, Spradlin, and perhaps Martis (that's more of my own idea - I think he'd do better as a reliever)