Author Topic: Um: John Lannan Appreciation Thread?  (Read 24988 times)

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Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Um: John Lannan Appreciation Thread?
« Reply #225 on: June 22, 2009, 04:11:47 pm »
Some bipolarness over at Fangraphs on Lannan (yes, I still cite them too much, but I don't see the signature line anymore).

First, from Matthew Carruth's piece on pitchers who rely on their defense for their good numbers (ed. note - Nats defense helpful? WTF?):

"John Lannan, the 24-year-old lefty seemed poised for a good season this year after some encouraging trends last year in his ability to throws strikes, miss bats and keep the ball on the ground. The strike throwing and the ground ball rate have at least remained stable, but the missed bats are down a whole two points and the home run rate remains elevated. Lannan is young and under team control for awhile, but I might consider moving him if I were the Nationals and could trick some team into giving up a haul of prospects for his shiny ERA."
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/letting-others-do-the-work

Then there is this piece of Lannan love from Dave Cameron. While the main focus of the piece starts with a discussion of Chad Jenkins, it starts with a paen to grounball pitchers like Lannan, whose skills get overlooked by some geeks but not others:

"If you’ve been reading the site for a while, you’ve probably figured out that I like groundball pitchers. Due to the emphasis placed on strikeout rates as a predictor of future success, too many sinkerball strike throwers have been overlooked as prospects on their way to success on the majors, and too often, their ability to get outs is dismissed as a fluke because they don’t generate an above average amount of swinging strikes. However, when you see guys like Aaron Cook, Jake Westbrook, Paul Maholm, and John Lannan consistently keep runs off the board, it becomes easier to realize that there’s a path to success that doesn’t involve high strikeout rates.

"However, there’s a downside to being an extreme groundball pitcher. Most of the guys who rack up tons of groundballs rely heavily on their two seam fastball, and as Dave Allen showed with Pitch F/x data, the two seamer has the largest platoon split of any pitch in baseball. It is a terrific pitch against same-handed hitters, but it’s not much of a weapon against opposite handed hitters. Scouts have intuitively known this for a long time, which is why so many sinker-slider guys gets pigeonholed as relievers, where they can be used in situations where the platoon problem can be minimized.

"If a groundball pitcher has a good change-up (or split finger, or even a curve in some cases - vertical movement is the key), he can neutralize opposite handed hitters and be an effective starting pitcher. However, without that off-speed pitch, he’s probably destined for the bullpen or a Vicente Padilla career path (check out his career L/R splits some time)."
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/chad-jenkins/

So, in sum, the stat-head analysis says John Lannan's ability is either underrated or overrated.


Offline sportsfan882

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Re: Um: John Lannan Appreciation Thread?
« Reply #226 on: June 22, 2009, 04:19:29 pm »
strikeouts are overrated

Offline NatsDad14

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Re: Um: John Lannan Appreciation Thread?
« Reply #227 on: June 22, 2009, 04:19:34 pm »
Some bipolarness over at Fangraphs on Lannan (yes, I still cite them too much, but I don't see the signature line anymore).

First, from Matthew Carruth's piece on pitchers who rely on their defense for their good numbers (ed. note - Nats defense helpful? WTF?):

"John Lannan, the 24-year-old lefty seemed poised for a good season this year after some encouraging trends last year in his ability to throws strikes, miss bats and keep the ball on the ground. The strike throwing and the ground ball rate have at least remained stable, but the missed bats are down a whole two points and the home run rate remains elevated. Lannan is young and under team control for awhile, but I might consider moving him if I were the Nationals and could trick some team into giving up a haul of prospects for his shiny ERA."
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/letting-others-do-the-work

Then there is this piece of Lannan love from Dave Cameron. While the main focus of the piece starts with a discussion of Chad Jenkins, it starts with a paen to grounball pitchers like Lannan, whose skills get overlooked by some geeks but not others:

"If you’ve been reading the site for a while, you’ve probably figured out that I like groundball pitchers. Due to the emphasis placed on strikeout rates as a predictor of future success, too many sinkerball strike throwers have been overlooked as prospects on their way to success on the majors, and too often, their ability to get outs is dismissed as a fluke because they don’t generate an above average amount of swinging strikes. However, when you see guys like Aaron Cook, Jake Westbrook, Paul Maholm, and John Lannan consistently keep runs off the board, it becomes easier to realize that there’s a path to success that doesn’t involve high strikeout rates.

"However, there’s a downside to being an extreme groundball pitcher. Most of the guys who rack up tons of groundballs rely heavily on their two seam fastball, and as Dave Allen showed with Pitch F/x data, the two seamer has the largest platoon split of any pitch in baseball. It is a terrific pitch against same-handed hitters, but it’s not much of a weapon against opposite handed hitters. Scouts have intuitively known this for a long time, which is why so many sinker-slider guys gets pigeonholed as relievers, where they can be used in situations where the platoon problem can be minimized.

"If a groundball pitcher has a good change-up (or split finger, or even a curve in some cases - vertical movement is the key), he can neutralize opposite handed hitters and be an effective starting pitcher. However, without that off-speed pitch, he’s probably destined for the bullpen or a Vicente Padilla career path (check out his career L/R splits some time)."
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/chad-jenkins/

So, in sum, the stat-head analysis says John Lannan's ability is either underrated or overrated.



Lannan has a huge platoon split, but it is in the opposite direction which is odd.

Offline JMUalumni

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Re: Um: John Lannan Appreciation Thread?
« Reply #228 on: June 22, 2009, 04:25:58 pm »
It looked like the 2-seamer was part of Lannan's problem earlier in the season, especially when he left it hanging to lefties.    In more recent starts, he has used his change up and curve ball instead of the 2-seamer and it has helped him induce some more groundballs.  Part of the reason he has been able to use these pitches is because, unlike the first few games of the season, he is getting ahead in the count.  He has raised his first pitch strike % to 64% for the season and isn't nibbling as much early in the count.  When he falls behind, it becomes much more difficult for him to goto his slider or curve and he is forced to try to get the batter out with his fastball/change.  Lannan is very effective when he can use all of his pitches, but when limited to two (or three if you count 4-seamer and 2-seamer) pitches he is very hittable.

Offline PatsNats28

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Re: Um: John Lannan Appreciation Thread?
« Reply #229 on: June 22, 2009, 05:00:55 pm »
I don't see what's wrong with a 2-seamer against opposite hitting batters. You can throw it down and away from them so that it's tailing out of the zone, and you can induce groundballs that way given that you have a solid 4-seamer as well.

Offline JMUalumni

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Re: Um: John Lannan Appreciation Thread?
« Reply #230 on: June 22, 2009, 05:31:06 pm »
After looking through the gameday data, I was wrong about the 2-seamer.  He got beat by righties a lot when he used the 2-seamer deep in the count.  He does NOT throw the 2-seamer to lefties.  The movement on his 2-seamer is only effective to righties, it most likely looks like a meatball to lefties.

Offline blue911

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Re: Um: John Lannan Appreciation Thread?
« Reply #231 on: June 22, 2009, 05:33:37 pm »
After looking through the gameday data, I was wrong about the 2-seamer.  He got beat by righties a lot when he used the 2-seamer deep in the count.  He does NOT throw the 2-seamer to lefties.  The movement on his 2-seamer is only effective to righties, it most likely looks like a meatball to lefties.

Doesn't a two seamer run in on lefties? And if he doesn't throw it and doesn't throw his change up, what does he throw the lefties?

Offline JMUalumni

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Re: Um: John Lannan Appreciation Thread?
« Reply #232 on: June 22, 2009, 05:37:02 pm »
Doesn't a two seamer run in on lefties? And if he doesn't throw it and doesn't throw his change up, what does he throw the lefties?

According to the data I have been looking at on Lannan vs LHH, he only throws four-seamers, sliders, and curves to lefties.  He uses those three pitches, as well as his change and two-seamer when facing righties.  It also appears as though he uses a sinker from time to time against righties.

Offline PatsNats28

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Re: Um: John Lannan Appreciation Thread?
« Reply #233 on: June 22, 2009, 05:58:55 pm »
Doesn't a two seamer run in on lefties? And if he doesn't throw it and doesn't throw his change up, what does he throw the lefties?

exactly... why would you throw it to a lefty? only way it works is if you can nail it down and away, but it would just get pounded by lefties (especially since it's not fast).

Offline JMUalumni

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Re: Um: John Lannan Appreciation Thread?
« Reply #234 on: June 22, 2009, 06:19:55 pm »
exactly... why would you throw it to a lefty? only way it works is if you can nail it down and away, but it would just get pounded by lefties (especially since it's not fast).

I can't tell you why he doesn't throw it to leftys, I can only tell you that he doesn't.  It has a bit more movement then the average 2-seamer and he throws almost primarily to the quadrant which is down and away from RHH.  I can go back and try to see if he used to throw it to LHH and analyze it from there, but as of now I can only tell you that he hasn't done it this year for whatever reason.

Offline blue911

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Re: Um: John Lannan Appreciation Thread?
« Reply #235 on: June 22, 2009, 06:46:20 pm »
I can't tell you why he doesn't throw it to leftys, I can only tell you that he doesn't.  It has a bit more movement then the average 2-seamer and he throws almost primarily to the quadrant which is down and away from RHH.  I can go back and try to see if he used to throw it to LHH and analyze it from there, but as of now I can only tell you that he hasn't done it this year for whatever reason.

Which is why he "Wets the bed" whenever he sees Chase Utley?




Offline spidernat

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Re: Um: John Lannan Appreciation Thread?
« Reply #236 on: June 22, 2009, 11:16:05 pm »
strikeouts are overrated


Really? Because we siscussed this in the offseaosn when Dunnn was an option and you dogged him because he steruck outn a lot/ SO now that Zimmerman is striking out a lot and your boy isn't strkiing out a lot of people it sudden;y isnt a big issue? You are killing yourself more anmore each day.  :?

Offline sportsfan882

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Re: Um: John Lannan Appreciation Thread?
« Reply #237 on: June 22, 2009, 11:18:15 pm »
spider is bombed

Offline PatsNats28

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Re: Um: John Lannan Appreciation Thread?
« Reply #238 on: June 23, 2009, 12:33:17 am »
I can't tell you why he doesn't throw it to leftys, I can only tell you that he doesn't.  It has a bit more movement then the average 2-seamer and he throws almost primarily to the quadrant which is down and away from RHH.  I can go back and try to see if he used to throw it to LHH and analyze it from there, but as of now I can only tell you that he hasn't done it this year for whatever reason.

Like I said, if you think of the path of the ball from his hand going down and away to a lefty... there's not much margin for error before you end up throwing it so that it comes right into the heart of the plate, which is a meatball for a lefty. Whereas if you miss with the righty, it's just a ball down and away.

Offline hammondsnats

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Re: Um: John Lannan Appreciation Thread?
« Reply #239 on: June 23, 2009, 12:54:13 am »
i don't care what these geeks have to say.  i know that there is no way around sugar coating his solid ERA and the fact he's gone 6 or more innings in 9 of 14 starts, which in my book is decent for a young lefty (and a manager who likes pulling starters early, to boot).

yeah the guy isn't a strikeout machine, who the hell cares.  we've seen he's capable of striking out 7, 8, 11 hitters in a game ... but k's don't mean everything (he's actually 1-2, w/ 3 no decisions thru his career in games where he has 7+ strike outs).

when he's not on, if he walks a batter or gives up a single, he induces double plays.  when he's on, he works quickly and challenges hitters with his low breaking stuff and has pretty good command while picking his spots carefully.

he's not an ace, but he's not a back end of the rotation starter or someone we should trade.  he's young, has great mound make-up and is our number 3 starter for the present and the future.

Offline KnorrForYourMoney

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Re: Um: John Lannan Appreciation Thread?
« Reply #240 on: June 23, 2009, 02:03:54 am »
spider is bombed
Yet he still owned you.  Strikeouts aren't important now, but they were when we were looking at Dunn?  Make up your mind.

Offline sportsfan882

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Re: Um: John Lannan Appreciation Thread?
« Reply #241 on: June 23, 2009, 06:36:04 am »
Yet he still owned you.  Strikeouts aren't important now, but they were when we were looking at Dunn?  Make up your mind.
I was talking with regard to pitchers.

Offline KnorrForYourMoney

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Re: Um: John Lannan Appreciation Thread?
« Reply #242 on: June 23, 2009, 02:05:46 pm »
How do they matter with hitters but not pitchers?  That makes no sense.

At least the statheads who believe the reverse of that have cited a study on the impact of strikeouts as justification for their rationale.

Strikeouts are somewhat important, but not necessarily integral, for both.  It's more meaningful to compare K's to BB's for a given player, hitter or pitcher.

Offline The Chief

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Re: Um: John Lannan Appreciation Thread?
« Reply #243 on: June 23, 2009, 02:11:06 pm »
I know I'm as bad as anyone in this regard but why are any of us even still trying to talk sense with sportsfan?  His MO is well-known :lol:

Offline Galah

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Re: Um: John Lannan Appreciation Thread?
« Reply #244 on: June 23, 2009, 02:18:53 pm »
I know I'm as bad as anyone in this regard but why are any of us even still trying to talk sense with sportsfan?  His MO is well-known :lol:

Everything that needs to be said has already been said, it's just that not everyone has had a chance to say it.

:-)

Offline sportsfan882

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Re: Um: John Lannan Appreciation Thread?
« Reply #245 on: June 23, 2009, 04:24:21 pm »
How do they matter with hitters but not pitchers?  That makes no sense.

At least the statheads who believe the reverse of that have cited a study on the impact of strikeouts as justification for their rationale.

Strikeouts are somewhat important, but not necessarily integral, for both.  It's more meaningful to compare K's to BB's for a given player, hitter or pitcher.
I didn't say they didn't matter, I said they were overrated. For pitchers I care about outs in any fashion as long as they prove they can get "outs" over a long period of time like Lannan.

For hitters I like to see, you know "hits".

Offline The Chief

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Re: Um: John Lannan Appreciation Thread?
« Reply #246 on: June 23, 2009, 04:34:52 pm »
I'd much rather have Zimmerman with 13 more strikeouts instead of those 13 dagger GIDPs he's hit into this season.

Offline JMUalumni

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Re: Um: John Lannan Appreciation Thread?
« Reply #247 on: June 23, 2009, 04:38:46 pm »
I'd much rather have Zimmerman with 13 more strikeouts instead of those 13 dagger GIDPs he's hit into this season.

This.

Strikeouts are great and I wouldn't say I don't want a strikeout monster, but groundball pitchers can be just as effective IF they have a solid defense behind them.  The problems with Ks is that they drive up pitch counts, but of course they have many positives as well.

Offline hammondsnats

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Re: Um: John Lannan Appreciation Thread?
« Reply #248 on: June 24, 2009, 12:08:33 am »
omg john lannan with such a solid start for us.  the guy is definitely a stud 3 for years to come.

Offline mitlen

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Re: Um: John Lannan Appreciation Thread?
« Reply #249 on: June 28, 2009, 04:16:05 pm »
Ace