Author Topic: Federal Deficit - Coming to the Ceiling Limit  (Read 4339 times)

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Offline NatsAddict

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Federal Deficit - Coming to the Ceiling Limit
« on: August 27, 2007, 10:16:14 am »
As of Thursday (the most recent data available), the US debt was sitting at $8.890 trillion.  However, not all of the debt is subject to the $8.965 trillion limit established on March 20 of last year.  As of Thursday, the debt subject to the limit was sitting at $8.892 trillion.

We will soon be facing another government shutdown as Congress debates raising the debt limit.  The US Treasury is hoping that it can make it until September 17 - the date for which corporate tax returns with the automatic extension of time to file are due, and which is also the date estimated taxes for individuals are due.  That could delay the reaching of the debt limit until mid-October.  Over the past several weeks, the debt is rising at $4.1875 billion/day.  Currently, with 15 more days of operations, and current spending levels, that would bring the debt subject to the limit to $8.955 trillion.  The US Treasury is betting within 57 hours that the debt ceiling will not be hit prior to the inflow of tax payments.  That's not a very comfortable buffer.

The US Treasury can extend the time to hitting the ceiling, as it did in March of last year, by being delinquent in its funding of such items as government pensions.

In today's political partisanship, I am afraid that when this time comes, just to make a point (as this will hopefully be the last time the debt ceiling needs to be raised prior to the 2008 elections), those in power will sacrifice the US economy in order to get sound bites.  This will happen either before September 15, or in mid-October.

In my opinion, considering the US Treasury can delay certain items as the pension fund payments, there is less than a 25% chance of this happening prior to September 17.  But, if it does happen prior to then, the consequences will be most unpleasant.  Interest rates will spike, the bond and stock markets will both fall dramatically, the $US will fall against all currencies (probably breaking $1.40/euro), and the commodities, especially metals, will rise.  Anyone who has investments in either the bond or stock markets should keep a keen eye on the debt, particularly the debt subject to the limit.  While, again it is unlikely, if things to go wrong prior to September 17, they are going to go very, very wrong.  If you come to the conclusion you may want to move some investments into gold, but are not familiar with the trading in the commodities market, there is a gold stock, GLD, that makes it easy to get into (and out of) the commodity as easily as with any other stock.

If you do want to start keeping an eye on things, go to http://fms.treas.gov/dts/index.html to get the Daily Treasury Statement.  Click on your choice of PDF or TXT file.  The information you will be most interested in is in Table III-C, in the lower left corner of that table.


Hopefully, and more likely, the ceiling limit debates will be held off until mid-October and some of the recent shocks to the markets will be subdued and a lot of the irrational emotion will have left the markets.  If it can be delayed until October, the impact of hitting the ceiling limit will be much less dramatic. 

Offline kimnat

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Re: Federal Deficit - Coming to the Ceiling Limit
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2007, 10:22:36 am »
This is really bad news!!!  Dan works for the FDA and I dare say other members here are federal employees.  So, while he won't get a pink slip, it does affect his ability to get a new job within gov't.  And while I know that you are absolutely correct about the "sound bites" that is probably the worse part of it.  "Hey, lets go bash the other party and make them look guilty.  That way we won't have to stop the earmarks or cut budgets anywhere!"

Offline 2k6nats

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Re: Federal Deficit - Coming to the Ceiling Limit
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2007, 02:06:25 pm »
Wow, this is bad.  Didn't we have a surplus when Clinton left office?

Offline kimnat

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Re: Federal Deficit - Coming to the Ceiling Limit
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2007, 02:55:12 pm »
Wow, this is bad.  Didn't we have a surplus when Clinton left office?

My first instinct say lets not even go there.  But I'm kinda stupid this way, I think I'll take a small stab at this one. 

Technically yes, we did.  But the economy was falsely inflated from overpriced tech stocks and then we got attacked and had to go to war.  war isn't cheap, esp. when cuts to pay for it aren't made.  That's technically how we "afforded" it in bygone generations.  We've become a generation not known for "tightening" the belt and live w/ excesses.  If Congress had been serious about the budget, they would have stopped the insipidly stupid pork (and I'm looking at BOTH parties here) barrell spending and they would have been serious about cutting the excessive spending (the uncritical stuff) from the budget and made a way to pay for the cost of war.  Now you have a fed that doesn't know how to really manage the rates and is screwing around badly w/ our economy!  That doesnt' help one bit either.  And know what else, if you've saved money in the gov't (don't use your whole budget), you're "punished" for it & have your budget cut the next go round.  I could really go off on this area, but I'll refrain...

Offline NatsAddict

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Re: Federal Deficit - Coming to the Ceiling Limit
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2007, 03:41:50 pm »
Wow, this is bad.  Didn't we have a surplus when Clinton left office?

The Clinton surplus is a media myth - it never existed.  The last surplus we had was in 1957.  However, spending was under much better control under Clinton (although there is some debate as to the prudence of some of the cuts).   While Bush cannot be held accountable for all the fiscal 2001 deficit, when he was inaugurated on January 20, 2001, the deficit was $5.728 trillion.  In the past 6 1/2 years, the deficit has grown by 57%.  During the entire Clinton administration, the deficit grew by 38%. 

A major problem now is that the world is hitting a saturation point of $US.  In November, when China decided not to buy any US securities for a month, the $US fell by nearly 5% (about 95% of our problems with China are our own fault - and our Congress is asking them to collapse their economy just like Japan did 20 years ago rather than admit that Congress itself is the root of the problem).  To fund Bush's habit of never finding of a spending bill he didn't like, and the new congress' expansion of earmarks, we depend on foreign purchases of our debt.   We also have to pay back the debt as it matures, which we do by issuing new debt.  For example, on when a 3-month 4.5% $1,000.00 treasury note matures, we have to issue $1,011.25 in new debt.  But, if we shut down, we default, interest rates go up, the $US falls. 

The declining $US, who's decline is primarily due to the deficit and the world becoming saturated with US debt instruments, is also hurting our foreign relations in a huge way.  You may have heard some in the media talking about "carry trade," which they never explain because they don't know what it is, only that it's on the teleprompter.  Assume you are Germany, and your currency is Euros.  In March, 2006, prior to the last budget ceiling crisis, you converted your Euros into $US in order to invest in $US securities.  The exchange rate then was $1.17 for each Euro.  So, for $1,000 US you converted 855 Euros.  That is a carry trade - when you convert your currency to carry a foreign currency.  That security paid about 4%.  So, now lets assume that note matures, and you get your 4% annual over 2 years.  That will come to $1,082 US.  But, now the weak $US has fallen to about $1.37/Euro.  When you convert that back into Euros, you get 790 Euros.  In short, you invested 855 Euros, and two years later have 790 Euros.  Now, multiple your losses by billions, and you see what our deficit is doing to the rest of the world.  As the rest of the world sells of its US securities, which is called "unwinding the carry trade," it needs to find buyers.  In order to find buyers, they have to discount the value of securities even further, which has the effect of raising interest rates here without any direct cause in the interest rate hikes being related to the domestic private-sector economy.  We are acting as imperialists, taking in foreign resources, and giving away $US that are becoming less valuable every day.  Foreign countries didn't just wake up one morning and start hating us without reason.  It's been simmering for a long time, and they have been reaching their breaking points.

Our government has got to dramatically cut back on its spending.

Offline KnorrForYourMoney

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Re: Federal Deficit - Coming to the Ceiling Limit
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2007, 04:34:25 pm »
Quote
The Clinton surplus is a media myth - it never existed.  The last surplus we had was in 1957.
Uh, you just cited a document that illustrates debt, not deficit/surplus.

Here's a table of budget data:

http://www.cbo.gov/budget/historical.pdf

I agree with kimnat.  Our government really lacks any sense of fiscal responsibility, and I don't see that changing any time soon.

Offline NatsAddict

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Re: Federal Deficit - Coming to the Ceiling Limit
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2007, 04:40:53 pm »
Uh, you just cited a document that illustrates debt, not deficit/surplus.

Here's a table of budget data:

http://www.cbo.gov/budget/historical.pdf

I agree with kimnat.  Our government really lacks any sense of fiscal responsibility, and I don't see that changing any time soon.

That's budget, not reality, and is incomplete.  The true annual deficit is the difference between the annual debt each year.

nospinzone1

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Re: Federal Deficit - Coming to the Ceiling Limit
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2007, 07:56:23 pm »
Wow, this is bad.  Didn't we have a surplus when Clinton left office?

YOU KIDDING????

nospinzone1

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Re: Federal Deficit - Coming to the Ceiling Limit
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2007, 07:57:55 pm »


CHINA HAS GOT US BY THE COJONES

Offline 2k6nats

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Re: Federal Deficit - Coming to the Ceiling Limit
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2007, 08:19:45 pm »
CHINA HAS GOT US BY THE COJONES

As far as economics...I wouldn't want to live in China over the US.

What I would like to see is tax RAISES, not cuts, for mostly the rich.  But, if all that extra money is wasted on unnecessary war funds, instead of helping "pay off the debt", or education, or just something really important, then what's the use...

Offline NatsAddict

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Re: Federal Deficit - Coming to the Ceiling Limit
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2007, 09:35:19 pm »
As far as economics...I wouldn't want to live in China over the US.

What I would like to see is tax RAISES, not cuts, for mostly the rich.  But, if all that extra money is wasted on unnecessary war funds, instead of helping "pay off the debt", or education, or just something really important, then what's the use...

Due to the nature of our tax system, raising taxes is the LAST thing we should do - why drive more investment and jobs overseas and further weaken the $US?  More taxes will make the economic situation even worse.  The spending is what needs to be addressed, and then the tax system needs a major overhaul that allows us to compete on a level playing field.  To raise taxes to feed an insatiable appetite for spending only accelerates the downward spiral.

Offline Ali the Baseball Cat

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Re: Federal Deficit - Coming to the Ceiling Limit
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2007, 10:33:45 pm »
A strong dollar is all good and well, but (Yuan-lite trade-dumpin' China aside), hasn't the slide of the dollar taken a big bite out of the huge trade deficit everyone was crapting in their pants about a decade ago?  Don't get me wrong, I hate the current ForEx rate on a very palpable personal level (I travel a lot), but the mighty greenback of the 80s-90s really hammered our export sector...or so was the widespread belief at the time. 

Since you--NatsAddict--obviously are well steeped in this, and I am very interested in your opinions on this...I'm wondering where you think most the fat is in the federal budget.  We can't do much that's meaningful about debt service, and ditto the untouchable entitlements (e.g. Medicare), which only leaves so much.  The Interstate system is in dire need of bridge replacement, the levees in Sacramento and N.O. are desperate, and the air traffic control system has to be completely rebuilt, just to name three huge line items...add a legitimate war on terror, Iraq, and continued global military obligations in Asia and Europe, and it seems that the cake is GONE.  Where are the cuts going to come from?  Bridges to nowhere and peanut subsidies?  I'm not trying to pick a fight here...far from it, I'm really very interested in your thoughts.  I might be a godless commie (or so some folks around here seem to think), but the spending habits of the Reagan and Bush II (and Kennedy and LBJ) administrations seem almost suicidal in effect, if not intent, and your previous statement, "Our government has got to dramatically cut back on its spending," falls on very receptive ears here.     

Due to the nature of our tax system, raising taxes is the LAST thing we should do - why drive more investment and jobs overseas and further weaken the $US?  More taxes will make the economic situation even worse.  The spending is what needs to be addressed, and then the tax system needs a major overhaul that allows us to compete on a level playing field.  To raise taxes to feed an insatiable appetite for spending only accelerates the downward spiral.

nospinzone1

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Re: Federal Deficit - Coming to the Ceiling Limit
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2007, 11:36:29 pm »
Due to the nature of our tax system, raising taxes is the LAST thing we should do - why drive more investment and jobs overseas and further weaken the $US?  More taxes will make the economic situation even worse.  The spending is what needs to be addressed, and then the tax system needs a major overhaul that allows us to compete on a level playing field.  To raise taxes to feed an insatiable appetite for spending only accelerates the downward spiral.

AGREE

Offline tomterp

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Re: Federal Deficit - Coming to the Ceiling Limit
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2007, 09:25:51 am »
I'm no expert on where our government spends it's money, but entitlements are huge and growing, and agricultural subsidies are enormous. So tell me again why some of my tax money should go to farmers?  None of their tax money comes to me, this seems like a one-way street.  Or as Ross Perot would say, the giant sucking sound you hear is your money going to distort the economics of farming.

Oh, but don't we have to preserve the "family farm"?  No, we don't, unless you also intend to preserve the family 7/11, the family hobby store, the family accounting business.

Entitlements, primarily programs to provide retirement or health care benefits to retirees, are a huge problem.  For one thing, people are living much longer (a good thing normally), which means they draw benefits for longer periods.  Once upon a time, a retiree at 65 might only be expected to draw for 3-5 years, and many never lived to retirement.  With longer lifespans, comes a longer benefit period.

And except for immigration, population growth is limited.  The retirement system depends on a constantly expanding pool of payers, to support the growing pool of retirees.  Somebody's going to have to make some hard decisions on the duration and extent of these programs, because they will become unaffordable in the not too distant future.

And obviously, conducting wars in Afghanistan AND Iraq is very costly.  IMO the right decision would have been to do Afganistan, and do it right, rather than do both half-assed, which (for purposes of this thread) would have been much more palatable with regards to the deficit.

Offline kimnat

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Re: Federal Deficit - Coming to the Ceiling Limit
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2007, 09:32:57 am »
Ali, this is going to be controversial.  And I'm not looking to pick an argument w/ anyone.  But SERIOUSLY, how much do illegals cost us every year? How much of a burden are they on our national budget.  With all the services they get, there's an obvious cut.  Really checkin into and bustin folks on Medicaid fraud could save us a BUNDLE!  Not funding anything for Robert Byrd could save a lot.  I'd be interested to see how much pork and frivilous spending has contributed to the debt and start there.  Unfortunately, with all the big ticket projects you mention (and those are real needs), the arts will and probably should suffer. While they're nice to have, I lump them into the entertainment category and when our personal budgets get tight, that's one of the first things to go - entertainment.  So, museums will take a hit and stuff like that.

And you are right about Bush II on this one.  He has only recently started using his veto powers and honestly I'm pretty ticked that he hasn't done it many times before the recent past.  He shoulda been presenting "realistic" budgets instead of ones full of extra programs and he should have vetoed budgets ripe w/ that stuff too, ESPECIALLY in light of war costs!!!  Both sides of the aisle have been completely inept and beyond idiotic in this area, IMO.

Offline NatsAddict

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Re: Federal Deficit - Coming to the Ceiling Limit
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2007, 11:57:10 am »
A strong dollar is all good and well, but (Yuan-lite trade-dumpin' China aside), hasn't the slide of the dollar taken a big bite out of the huge trade deficit everyone was crapting in their pants about a decade ago?  Don't get me wrong, I hate the current ForEx rate on a very palpable personal level (I travel a lot), but the mighty greenback of the 80s-90s really hammered our export sector...or so was the widespread belief at the time. 

I don't want to go into a full dissertation, but will address each of your paragraphs separately.

Short answer – you can't export what you don't make, and, even though the $US has weakened, it is still being manipulated much stronger than it should be.

Take a look at the annual trade deficits on a calendar year (as opposed to fiscal year) basis.  No, I don't know why the US Census keeps track of the trade deficits on a calendar year basis.

Annual Trade Deficits in billions of $US:
1992 – 39.213
1993 – 70.311
1994 – 98.493
1995 – 96.384
1996 – 104.065
1997 – 108.273
1998 – 166.140
1999 – 265.090
2000 – 379.835 (869% increase during the Clinton administration)
2001 – 365.126
2002 – 423.725
2003 – 496.915
2004 – 612.092
2005 – 714.371
2006 – 758.522 (100% increase during the first 6 years of the Bush administration)
2007 (first six months) – 352.748

The dollar has declined dramatically against most currencies since 2000 (71% against the euro, 300% against the ruble), and the trade deficit, as a percentage, seems to support that a weakened dollar does reduce the rate of grow of a trade deficit, but did nothing whatsoever to cause a real reduction in the deficit. 

One would think that with American goods becoming relatively cheaper in foreign markets, we could export anything we manufacture.  That's the problem, we don't manufacture squat.  We've idiotically moved toward a service economy, and it's much more difficult to export services.  Manufacturing is now 12% of our GDP, yet accounts for 2/3 of our exports.  Most of our GDP is not subject to being exported.  During the Clinton administration, I thought, economically, we were suffering through the worst president in history.  But then Clinton was followed by the mother of all idiots.

Clinton's economy was ill-conceived.  He, for whatever asinine reason, want to convert us from manufacturing economy (with relatively higher paying jobs) to a service economy (with relatively lower paying jobs).  He embraced one of the worst ideas to ever come out or the republican think tanks, NAFTA.  He loved the idea, but then, in Clinton's manipulation of the idea, made it several magnitudes worse.  Although initially a republican idea, the NAFTA Clinton created is similar in name only.  Then, he made our poorly conceived tax code, especially in its impact on manufacturing, even worse – pushing the envelop toward unbearable.  Finally, by ignoring the potential of emerging markets (this is  where Alan Greenspan joined with Bush and Clinton to create modern version of The Three Stooges), both the Clinton and Bush administrations were caught completely off-guard. The result?  Manufacturing started to leave the country in droves.  We cannot export things we don't produce.  And, now, we even import basic needs.  For each of the last two years, for the first times in history, we, the world's breadbasket, have been a net importer of food!  It makes you want to slap Bush upside the head (my theory is that it would sound eerily similar to the Liberty Bell).

What do we export?  Military goods, airplane parts, and services.  In fact, thanks to the declining $US, the exportation of services is the only area in which the trade deficit has been reduced even with the declining dollar.  It's been relatively less expensive for foreigner to take vacations in the US, and that is the primary source of the reduction in the trade deficit over the past year.  Thank goodness those highly paid bellhops, valet parking attendants, and hotel maids are benefiting from this economy.  Meanwhile, we import clothing, food, electronics, toilet paper, auto parts, energy, and just about everything we use in everyday life.

Under Clinton's direction, the US Treasury started a strong dollar policy.  This is a policy Bush has retrained.  But, at least Clinton backed it with much more prudent fiscal policies.  With the relatively slow growth in our deficits, while still needing to manipulate the $US, it didn't take as much to maintain a strong $US in the 1990's as it does today.  Clinton desired a strong $US to ease the otherwise inflationary cost of daily needs of goods whose manufacture he intended to export under NAFTA.

Bush maintained the strong dollar policy, but it became more difficult to maintain that policy with his unconscionable deficits.  Those deficits, oddly enough, are the reason he has desired a strong $US.  The $US needs to be strong in order to attract foreign investment.  But, with his deficits, it got so bad that in November, 2005, the Fed announced that it would no longer disclose the M3 money supply (which included $US held by foreign banks) after March 23, 2006.  The economy, fundamentally, has not had much of a recovery from the 2000 market crash.  Manufacturing jobs, for which compensation is 20% more than for all US jobs, have declined by another 18% since 2000.  Bush has attempted to manipulate the $US by having the Fed, under the direction of the US Treasury, hike interest rates in a dying economy, in order to obtain foreign debt financing.  It's failed miserably.  We've been manipulating the $US, trying to strengthen it, and then complaining that China needs to permit the yuan to appreciate in order to match our manipulation.  If we allowed the $US place itself in a free market, it would serve the exact purpose that are asking from China.  Most central banks believe that if the $US were not being manipulated by the US, it would trade in a range of 1.60 to 1.70 to the euro instead of the 1.37 it is at today.   But, we are in the position where we cannot allow that to happen, because we don't manufacture our daily needs.  We have to import them.  And, if we import them under a weak $US, we'll suffer devastating inflation.

The really sad thing is that, per wage earned, the American worker is still the most efficient and productive worker in the world.  However, our unique tax code, having been manipulated in order to provide votes in order to achieve power for the politicians, more than offsets those efficiencies, embedding taxes into the production costs.  Those taxes add an average of nearly 30% to the production costs, making the production of goods in America more expensive.  In other developed countries, there are few if any taxes embedded in the production cost.  They generally add a VAT (Valued Added Tax), which is a post-production tax, and which can be readily eliminated from exported goods.  Our tax code does not permit any of the embedded taxes to be eliminated, and is keeping us from playing on a level field.  With the promised benefits under various entitlement programs, and the tremendous increases required in order to pay for those entitlements, if done under the current system of taxation, it soon won't be worthwhile to manufacture anything in the US unless those items are also used in the US.  We will not be able to compete at all in the exportation of manufactured goods.

Offline NatsAddict

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Re: Federal Deficit - Coming to the Ceiling Limit
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2007, 04:43:07 pm »
It took me longer than it should have finding this debate within the Fed on the $US - I had bookmarked it under "Euro."  Anyway, I found the debate within the Fed between the global economists and the domestic economists intriguing. 

Quote
The Coming Dollar Crisis?
September 15, 2005

As is often the case, the most interesting things I learned at last August's round of conferences came not in the formal conference sessions but in the informal small-group conversations before, around, in the interstices of, and after the conference.

Take the Federal Reserve Bank of Kansas City's "Greenspan Era" conference. It was held in Jackson Hole, at the Jackson Lake Lodge in Grand Teton National Park, in the shadow of the Grand Tetons, which are perhaps the most impressive mountain range in North America. ("Perhaps" because the Canadian central bankers present pointed out the Canadian Rockies from Lake Louise to Jasper, while Federal Reserve Bank of San Francisco president Janet Yellen sang the praises of the mountains of her own Federal Reserve District: the east face of the Sierra Nevada as seen from the Owens Valley, to be specific.) You spend the mornings in windowless conference rooms, and the afternoons outside--on the Snake River, hiking, climbing, looking for moose, looking for elk, hoping that bear are not looking for you.

But the afternoons--and the formal and informal breaks in the mornings when you flee the windowless conference room for the fresh air of the west lawn of the lodge to stare at Mount Moran and company across the lake--are filled with arguments. Go with Federal Reserve Governor Don Kohn on an afternoon hike up Cascade Canyon, I am told, and expect to gain 3000 feet in two hours while being quizzed intently about technical details of monetary policy. Try to keep from grounding yourself on sand bars in the Snake River, and you will hear ex-senior executive branch officials of both political parties give their assessments of why neither of the Bush II Treasury Secretaries has been able to make effective use of the thousand or so people who work directly for him.

This time the most interesting rounds of break-and-afternoon conversations I heard were sparked by Sebastian Edwards's paper about the U.S. current account deficit. My conversations quickly exposed a deep fault among the conference attendees. Those who analyzed or forecast the U.S. domestic macroeconomy agreed that a steep decline in the value of the dollar sometime in the next five years was overwhelmingly likely, but by and large they did not think that such a decline would pose a big problem for the U.S. economy. (They agreed that it might well pose a very big problem for some of America's trading partners.) By contrast, those who analyzed or forecast the international economy as a whole were typically terrified by the prospect of a steep (30% or more, perhaps much more) decline in the value of the dollar: they thought a severe U.S. recession was a definite possibility, and that the situation would require exceptionally skillful handling to keep from becoming a serious economic problem.

Why this disjunction?

The domestic macroeconomists would typically argue more or less like this:

    Yes, the dollar is likely to decline steeply either when foreign central banks stop buying dollar-denominated assets to keep the values of their currencies down or when international speculators lose confidence or both. But so what? The fall in the value of the dollar will boost foreign demand for U.S. exports. Workers will be pulled out of other sectors into the export sector. The effects of the dollar decline are much more likely to be a plus for employment rather than a minus, a boom rather than a recession.

To this, the international economists would respond more-or-less like this:

    When foreign central banks stop buying or international speculators lose confidence in the value of the dollar and thus stop buying U.S. long-term bonds, two things happen: the value of the dollar falls, and the rate of interest on dollar-denominated long-term bonds spikes. The spike in long-term interest rates discourages investment spending directly, and also discourages consumption spending because higher interest rates mean lower housing and stock prices and thus lower consumer wealth. The fall in domestic spending happens now. The rise in exports as the falling dollar makes U.S.-made products more attractive to foreigners happens two years from now. In between, a lot of people are unemployed--and as they are unemployed, they cut back further on their spending. Plus there is the risk that the fall in the value of the dollar and the fall in long-term asset prices generated by the interest rate spike will cause enough bankruptcies among financial institutions to cause a flight to quality--which will further raise non-safe interest rates, and further discourage investment and consumption spending

This then puzzled the domestic economists:

    Why should interest rates spike? The Federal Reserve controls American interest rates. If it wants to keep the price of the ten-year Treasury bond high, it can simply start buying bonds until the price of ten-year Treasuries is what the Fed wants it to be. There's no reason for employment in construction and other interest rate-sensitive sectors to fall before employment in exports and related sectors rises--at least not unless the Federal Reserve makes a big mistake and allows rising interest rates to shoot the economy in the head.

And at this point the response of the international economists fragmented:

   1. Some said that the falling dollar would create inflation--with imports at 1/6 of GDP, a 40% fall in the dollar would, if fully passed through to import prices, add 6% to the U.S. price level. The Federal Reserve would feel honor-bound to maintain its reputation as an inflation-fighter, and so would allow interest rates to go high enough to produce enough unemployment to push nominal wages down far enough to offset this rise in import prices. Thus the Federal Reserve would welcome the spike in interest rates as appropriate, and take no steps to offset it.
   2. Others said that the adjustment to the fall in the dollar would require that ten million workers shift out of construction, retail, and consumer services occupations and into export and import-competing manufacturing industries. You cannot move ten million American workers from one sector to another in a matter of a year or two without creating lots of structural unemployment.
   3. Still others said that financial stress would be the key: perhaps some major Wall Street firms would discover big unhedged risks in their derivative books; perhaps perhaps others would find that the values of their portfolios were more responsive to changes in long term interest rates than they had thought. In either case, it is financial distress and chaos that really triggers the recession.

And the domestic side had rebuttals to each of these three points:

   1. If the Federal Reserve announces now that it is targeting a measure of inflation that is not grossly affected by import prices--that it is targeting nominal wage growth, say--there is no need for the Federal Reserve to defend its credibility by attacking the economy. Just as the Federal Reserve has trained observers that it is more important to worry about 'core inflation' than 'headline inflation', so the Federal Reserve ought to be preparing observers to recognize that inflation produced by rising import prices is a one-time event, not an inflationary spiral that needs to be fought by triggering a deep recession.
   2. A large structural shift will cause high unemployment only if the transition is quick and brutal, and only if workers are pushed out of job-losing rather than pulled into job-gaining sectors. Whether it is quick or gradual and whether it is push or pull depends, once again, on the path of interest rates. Only if the Federal Reserve fails to do its job and allows for a massive interest rate spike is there a problem.
   3. Financial stress is something that can be managed: if the Federal Reserve keeps the path of interest rates smooth, great financial stress is unlikely.

And the domestic side of the argument pointed to the historical experience of the U.S. from 1986-1990:

    Between 1985 and 1989 the value of the U.S. dollar declined by 40%. Between 1986 and 1990 the U.S. trade deficit declined from 4.0% of GDP to 0.5% of GDP--without a big recession, or significant macroeconomic distress.

Before dinner one evening I was lectured by a prominent Washington-area international finance economist about all the reasons that the 1986-1990 U.S. experience was likely to be a bad guide to the future:

   1. 1986-90 began with a 50% decline in world oil prices, a powerful stimulus to the world economy. This time the process is beginning with a doubling of world oil prices.
   2. 1986-90 saw Europe growing rapidly. Europe has a high propensity to buy U.S. exports, and the European boom meant that U.S. exports grew much faster in the late 1980s than anyone had expected. This time it is Asia that is booming, not Europe. And Asia has a relatively low appetite for U.S. exports.
   3. The Japanese government was willing to buy very large amounts of dollar-denominated assets in the late 1980s to keep the decline in the value of the dollar "orderly." In so doing, it inflated its domestic credit base and touched off its own property bubble. No foreign government [Read: China]is going to risk this again just because the U.S. would rather that the decline in the dollar was slow and orderly.
   4. The problem then was half as big relative to the size of the U.S. economy as is the problem now.

One way I found myself thinking of the argument is that the domestic-side economists look at the goods market and think of a decline in the value of the dollar as a supply shock, and as not that big a supply shock: if half of the adjustment in import prices is taken in reduced margins by producers abroad, and if the shock is spread out over four years, then 40% / 2 x 16% / 4 = 0.8% increase in inflation relative to baseline over three consecutive years. The Federal Reserve could easily allow that to happen without--providing it explained its causes well--running any risk of damaging the credibility of its commitment to effective price stability. No big deal. International finance economists, by contrast, look at the asset markets. A 40% decline in the dollar over four years is a decline at the rate of 10% per year. Once financial markets convince themselves that such a decline is coming and that they need to be compensated for it, that ought to drive a 400 basis point wedge between U.S. and foreign long-bond expected returns. And that is a very big deal.

Martin Feldstein said something very smart just after we had both taken off our shoes at Jackson Hole airport. He said that the domestic-side economists were keying off the past experience of the U.S. after 1985 and of Britain after 1982, and so were saying "no big deal"; while the international finance economists were keying off of the experiences of developing countries that had run large current-account deficits--Mexico 1994, East Asia 1997, Argentina 2001. Each side had its own preferred models that functioned very well at explaining the past historical cases that they focused on. But there was no way right now of settling, empirically, whether a model built to explain the U.S. in 1985 or Korea in 1998 was more applicable to the U.S. in 2006--you had to make a bet, either that continuities in U.S. economic structure were important, or that financial globalization was important, in choosing your model and your terms of analysis.

It was very interesting. And very disturbing. Brilliant economists, thinking hard, unable to reach even the beginnings of analytical agreement about how to model the distribution of possible futures.
Brad DeLong, Professor of Economics at U.C Berkeley

It's pretty obvious that I tend to follow the thinking of the international economist rather than the domestic economists (such as Greenspan).  So far, virtually everything that the international economist have stated has proven to be true (or is currently in the stages of coming true), and  the domestic economists are looking foolish.

Offline Dave B

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Re: Federal Deficit - Coming to the Ceiling Limit
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2007, 05:41:30 pm »
Two words "legalize it"

Marijuana would be pure profit in terms of taxes. 

How much of the population smokes weed? 5-10% maybe

How much do they spend per week? I'd say at least 20 bucks, probably 19.50 of that could be pure tax

~20 million people*~20 bucks*52 weeks = 20 billion dollars

My numbers in terms of number of users might be a little off. I think 20 bucks a week is a little conservative.

The order of magnitude is pretty accurate. 

Not only are we getting 20 billion in tax revenue, we wont be spending money on a war on drugs, and we get to keep the 20 bil in the US and not lose it to Colombia or wherever it comes from nowadays.

You can probably even raise the price of marijuana to where people spend double since people might be willing to pay for the added luxury of smoking it legally in weed bars.

We wont win the war on drugs, people will always do it, might as well profit.

If you really wanted to get crazy, legalize all drugs.  Although they could be dangerous.  Weed is farily harmless. Alcohol is dangerous as hell and it is legal.

Its really the ace in the hole

Offline Ali the Baseball Cat

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Re: Federal Deficit - Coming to the Ceiling Limit
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2007, 12:11:41 am »
Lots to digest here...I was a kid then, but I remember going to Pennsylvania and Ohio back in the late 70s when the de-industrialization of the Ohio valley was in full swing.  Certain documentary makers have made compelling, if not entirely objective, documentaries addressing those days (I'm thinking specifically of Flint, MI).  The collapse of heavy manufacturing happened long before Clinton, it seems to me...I remember passing by Sparrows Point in Baltimore at 2:00 in the morning 25 years ago when the shifts were changing, and there were thousands of people coming and going, and now you are lucky to see a security guard at any hour.  Steel went to Brazil and Taiwan and other points far removed, and cars and ships followed suit (I guess we still manufacture a few submarines in Connecticut, and there are piles of auto assembly plants for the domestic market, though the parts come from, well, wherever). 

I guess my question is this:  can "rich" countries keep manufacturing jobs, other than for niche markets?  If one looks outside of aeronautical or military, the answer kind of seems to be, well, "no."  Moving people from high-paying manufacturing jobs to flipping burgers (or processing mortgages) seems to be the economic model, not just here, but in lots of places...for better or for worse.  From what I've read, lots of the manufacturing jobs that went to Ireland a decade or 15 years ago now skipping off to cheaper countries...so the sudden conversion of a rural economy to manufacturing has now skipped directly to services, all within a decade or two.

The Clinton years certainly accelerated the inevitable, but the economy was already really convulsing back in the 80s.

I TOTALLY agree about the VAT.  We need one here, right away...17-20% nationwide, with the usual poverty rebates etc etc.   Tax the consumer, not the inputs...just my opinion. 

I'll need to re-read what you forwarded when I'm not watching a ballgame on the west coast... 





It took me longer than it should have finding this debate within the Fed on the $US - I had bookmarked it under "Euro."  Anyway, I found the debate within the Fed between the global economists and the domestic economists intriguing. 
Brad DeLong, Professor of Economics at U.C Berkeley

It's pretty obvious that I tend to follow the thinking of the international economist rather than the domestic economists (such as Greenspan).  So far, virtually everything that the international economist have stated has proven to be true (or is currently in the stages of coming true), and  the domestic economists are looking foolish.


Offline Ali the Baseball Cat

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Re: Federal Deficit - Coming to the Ceiling Limit
« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2007, 12:21:04 am »
Totally agree.  Prohibition is poor fiscal policy, and not much of a deterrent.  Tax it and make it legal.

Two words "legalize it"

Marijuana would be pure profit in terms of taxes. 

How much of the population smokes weed? 5-10% maybe

How much do they spend per week? I'd say at least 20 bucks, probably 19.50 of that could be pure tax

~20 million people*~20 bucks*52 weeks = 20 billion dollars

My numbers in terms of number of users might be a little off. I think 20 bucks a week is a little conservative.

The order of magnitude is pretty accurate. 

Not only are we getting 20 billion in tax revenue, we wont be spending money on a war on drugs, and we get to keep the 20 bil in the US and not lose it to Colombia or wherever it comes from nowadays.

You can probably even raise the price of marijuana to where people spend double since people might be willing to pay for the added luxury of smoking it legally in weed bars.

We wont win the war on drugs, people will always do it, might as well profit.

If you really wanted to get crazy, legalize all drugs.  Although they could be dangerous.  Weed is farily harmless. Alcohol is dangerous as hell and it is legal.

Its really the ace in the hole

Offline NatsAddict

  • Posts: 4099
Re: Federal Deficit - Coming to the Ceiling Limit
« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2007, 11:56:07 am »
Lots to digest here...I was a kid then, but I remember going to Pennsylvania and Ohio back in the late 70s when the de-industrialization of the Ohio valley was in full swing.  Certain documentary makers have made compelling, if not entirely objective, documentaries addressing those days (I'm thinking specifically of Flint, MI).  The collapse of heavy manufacturing happened long before Clinton, it seems to me...I remember passing by Sparrows Point in Baltimore at 2:00 in the morning 25 years ago when the shifts were changing, and there were thousands of people coming and going, and now you are lucky to see a security guard at any hour.  Steel went to Brazil and Taiwan and other points far removed, and cars and ships followed suit (I guess we still manufacture a few submarines in Connecticut, and there are piles of auto assembly plants for the domestic market, though the parts come from, well, wherever). 

I guess my question is this:  can "rich" countries keep manufacturing jobs, other than for niche markets?  If one looks outside of aeronautical or military, the answer kind of seems to be, well, "no."  Moving people from high-paying manufacturing jobs to flipping burgers (or processing mortgages) seems to be the economic model, not just here, but in lots of places...for better or for worse.  From what I've read, lots of the manufacturing jobs that went to Ireland a decade or 15 years ago now skipping off to cheaper countries...so the sudden conversion of a rural economy to manufacturing has now skipped directly to services, all within a decade or two.

The Clinton years certainly accelerated the inevitable, but the economy was already really convulsing back in the 80s.

I TOTALLY agree about the VAT.  We need one here, right away...17-20% nationwide, with the usual poverty rebates etc etc.   Tax the consumer, not the inputs...just my opinion. 

I'll need to re-read what you forwarded when I'm not watching a ballgame on the west coast... 






The steel industry in the US is still strong.  Over the years, primarily due to consolidation, the high cost of meeting EPA standards, and recycling (which accounts for 2/3 of the annual production), there are fewer facilities than before.  Still, in the US, steel manufacturing is a $75 billion industry and accounts for 10% of the world's steel production.  We have 140 steel factories employing over 100,000 steel workers,  which are generally located on the Great Lakes for ease of transportation of the finished product along the St. Lawrence as opposed to the much more difficult and unreliable Ohio and Mississippi.  Also, the furnaces are now oxygen burning rather than coal burning.  Further, most steel in the US is of a higher grade, using tungsten or other alloys as the hardening element rather than carbon, which has further cut back on the use of coal in our steel industry. 

No economy can survive without tangible resources.  A service economy (or, as Clinton called it, a knowledge economy) still requires those tangible resources.  Some of those tangible (manufactured) resources are in infinite demand just to sustain life, whereas services are generally luxuries.  Also, service industries, while being less favorable for export, are also less favorable to benefit from economies of scale and efficiencies.   

Over 30 years ago there was a growing debate over the future of education.  Virtually all leading economists from all schools of thought were warning that education costs were in danger of skyrocketing as education, as opposed to say the manufacture of steel, was extremely difficult to make more efficient.  The only efficiencies could be obtained by increased classroom size and vast overcrowding.  Because of the nature of education, and its inefficiencies, the economists warned that education costs were going to increase much faster than inflation.  But, the politicians ignored the problem, and not only has education started to increase at more than twice the rate of inflation, it's even outpaced the increase in healthcare costs.  The politicians now seem to be caught totally off guard, do not recognize the core of the problem, and instead trying to assess blame and throw money.  The inefficiencies of a service economy will always result in inflationary costs.   

To survive, an economy needs a balance of manufacturing and services, unless the economy shifts its purchased from manufactured goods to services.   That is not the case, and the US appetite for manufactured goods has grown even as the economic output has gone in the opposite direction.  It's a precarious set of circumstances.  Ideally, the manufacturing output of the economy would match the manufacturing demand – otherwise, to meet the demand there will be a trade deficit.  Contrary to your belief, manufacturing was strengthening in the 80's.  Clinton, though, went out of his way to destroy US manufacturing, and thus went out of his way to grow the trade deficits at an unconscionable rate.  And, in addition to the jobs he desired to destroy, the grossly expanding trade deficits themselves fed into a spiral of job elimination. 



We had to grossly manipulate the $US to keep the economy from going into double-digit inflation, which was irresponsible behavior to the rest of the world, and the rest of the world took note.  It was, in effect, devaluing their currencies holding, passing our inflation onto them.  Ron Paul brought this up in , proving to be the only candidate that has a working concept of global economics.

Due to Clinton's idiotic push toward a service economy, and its inability to achieve efficientcies, our economy is subject to inflation from within.  Further, as services are difficult to export, and we fail to manufacture to the level of our demand, we have a trade deficit.  The only way we prevented double-digit inflation was currency manipulation.  In short, a stronger manufacturing sector will reduce the trade deficits, bring the $US dollar to true market value without manipulation or further devaluation, ease the majority of inflationary pressures, and greatly reduce our imperialist economic practices that have eroded the world's opinion of the US.

Due to currency manipulation on our part, and Bush's asinine deficts, the $US is due for a collapse that we are not able to control.  The Fed wants the $US at about 1.05/Euro, but we aren't even close.  However, thanks to Clinton, our economy is getting virtually no benefit that we would otherwise have received with a falling currency.  Now, no matter where the currency goes, there is an enormous downside.  Bernanke is balancing on a needle, and if he teeters at all, we'll either have double-digit inflation or a severe recession.  Bernanke has often stated that, if a choice must be made, he would rather lead us into a depression than face inflation.  No matter what he choses, and he will have to make a choice (I think he's done a tremendous job not to have his hand forced to date), he'll p*ss me off. 


As for Ireland, it is the fastest growing manufacturing country in Europe.  Manufacturing in Ireland is about three times as much of its economy as it is here.  A fourth of their entire economy is foreign manufacturing.  Ninety percent of the world's largest pharmaceutical companies have manufacturing facilities in Ireland.  All of Intel's high-end processors are now manufactured in Ireland.  All of Microsoft's manufacturing for all of Europe, Asia, and the Middle East is located in Dublin.  The high tech  industry in Dublin dwarfs the Silicon Valley.  Ireland has made massive improvements to its infrastructure to improve its capacity, and now all of Europe is within a 2-day ground service.  Thanks to its manufacturing, Ireland enjoys one of the lowest unemployment rates in the world.  Not coincidentally, my primary bank is Ulster Bank.

Offline Ali the Baseball Cat

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Re: Federal Deficit - Coming to the Ceiling Limit
« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2007, 11:31:41 pm »
I think that that the thrust (excuse the pun  :P) of the Clintonista "knowledge economy" mantra was directed (or so it always seemed to me) towards employment more than tonnes or gross revenue...and in that regard, steel had become a pretty small fish by 1992 (and much smaller in 2007).  Steel mills employed the better part of a million people back in the 70s, and those jobs had very big local income multipliers in regions like Allentown-Bethlehem, Cleveland, Fontana CA, and yadda ya.  These days, steel might be a precious vestige of highly productive domestic manufacturing, but it sure doesn't employ a lot of people...there are like 20 Wal Mart employees making 12-16 grand a year for every well-paid steelworker.  But, yeah, point taken. 

Re: difficulty in exporting services and lack of economies of scale/efficiencies/etc of services, I find myself intuitively wanting to disagree here, but I cannot support anything with a broadside of data, so i'm gonna have to roll over...like I said, I'm no economist.  Does the banking industry fit into "services"?  (I assume so)  Seems that there are HUGE economies of scale there...just judging from the inroads ING, Citibank, DeutscheBank, etc etc  have made around the world, even at the retail level (hell, everyone I know has been moving money into virtual banks like INGdirect) . 

Anyways, going from the banal to the sublime, we'll resume the battle for the NL East cellar on monday, so that should settle everything!



 

Offline NatsAddict

  • Posts: 4099
Re: Federal Deficit - Coming to the Ceiling Limit
« Reply #22 on: August 30, 2007, 08:45:37 am »
US Banks, largely due to Reagan's deregulation, is a raw nerve.  Banks are services, but the efficiencies benefits of economies of scale have been provided by automation have helped them reduce certain small percentage of their costs.  But, even that has been abused by the industry, and none of the efficiencies found their way into the market.  Oddly enough, in a gross abuse of the efficiencies gained, banks have reversed their automation argument, and, to the economy, have provided none of the benefits of economies of scale.  Part of the argument was that it was needed to reduce the cost of things like NSF checks (which were already insignificant) by moving us to a "cashless" society and using ATMs.  Then, they've now changed their approach, and will permit ATM overdrafts  and assess huge overdraft fees (you have $20 in you account, $30 of groceries, swipe your card, and end up paying $65 for your groceries).  This has been especially hard on the lower class, which is more likely to swipe their card at McDonalds and buy a $40 Big Mac.  Also, if we ever win the so-called War on Drugs, our banks will collapse as the foreign loans default.


Also, there have been comments on the reduction of spending, such as limiting the entitlement programs to their stated intent, and not extending them further to the illegal immigrants who never contributed to the programs.  But there is one huge spending program that Bush initiated and should be stopped immediately -  the Strategic Defense Initiative.  In short, we had a relative balance of power.  Then, against all international pleads, lead by Russia, Bush started up SDI with a vengeance.  With SDI, Russia was open for an attack from the US, but would not be able to retaliate.  Thus, a new and outrageously expensive cold war is again underway. 

Putin's hand was forced, and he restarted the development some amazing new weaponry.  Russia's missiles no longer follow a ballistic path, and all Bush's SDI efforts have been for naught (except for certain defense contractors).  We were both equally susceptible to attack, and the balance of power was restored.  Now Bush is trying to put up missile defenses along the Russian border in northern Europe "to protect Europe from attacks from North Korea and Iran" although the intelligence is that neither could come anywhere close.  As Putin pointed out, and virtually every European government agrees, its actually more SDI, (vainly) hoping to hit the new Russian missiles prior to their reaching their full velocity and altitude at which they will no longer follow a ballistic trajectory.  Bush has been going overboard trying to restart the Cold War.  Unfortunately, he'll always be wiped out in a battle of wits with Putin.

To alleviate its costs, Russia is selling the weaponry everywhere, including Iran.  Early last year, Iran announced it has acquired a relatively old sub.  I was wondering for what it was to be a launching platform.  About a month or two later is when they launched the Russian VA-111 Shkval torpedo, for which we have no defense.  Now, if we did go to war with Iran, the cost would be enormous.  It is probable that we would lose at least one carrier.  For that reason, we are even now developing a barge so enormous that it can lift a carrier completely out of the water and carry it halfway around the world to its home port.  There is a lot of incredibly stupid and unnecessary military spending.

And now back to the NL East.  It's not fair between the Nats and Marlins.  The Nats have Acta, the Marlins have Gonzalez.  It may as well be the Nats have Putin, and the Marlins Bush - it's not a fair fight.

Offline NatsAddict

  • Posts: 4099
Re: Federal Deficit - Coming to the Ceiling Limit
« Reply #23 on: August 30, 2007, 10:20:10 am »
Tom brought up the farm subsidies:

Quote
Wednesday, August 29, 2007
Down on the Farm   [Yuval Levin]

Have a look at the map of Manhattan below (used recently by Agriculture Secretary Mike Johanns in a speech). The red dots indicate people who live in Manhattan (and so clearly are neither hurting for money nor tilling the soil on the family farm) but receive agricultural subsidies from the federal government.



"The larger red blobs mark people receiving more than a quarter of a million dollars in farm subsidies annually.

The farm bill passed by House Democrats in July would continue giving millionaires farm subsidies (setting the income threshold for payments at $1 million a year, and keeping loopholes in place that allow some making much more to qualify). The Bush administration has proposed sharply reducing the income threshold to $200,000 a year and ending many of those loopholes. That would reduce the number of subsidy recipients by less than 40,000 (of the current million or so recipients)—though I suppose it might put some rooftop gardens on Park Avenue out of commission.
National Review

Did you know it was illegal for you to grow wheat?  That is part of these farm subsidy programs.  The Corn Growers are lobbying to add corn to the "illegal for the private citizen to grow list."

nospinzone1

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Re: Federal Deficit - Coming to the Ceiling Limit
« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2007, 06:25:14 pm »
YOU GUYS ARE GETTING TO EGGHEADED FOR MY LOW INTELLECT LEVEL.