Rose / "Shoeless" Joe Hall-Eligible

[varoadking]

My point was more addressing the supposed hypocrisy of having game memorabilia from a certain player in the Hall but not the player themselves.

My point was more addressing the hypocrisy of having game memorabilia from a certain player in the Hall but not ALLOWING the player themselves.  Therein lies the difference...

Whether he deserved / deserves to be in the HoF is one thing...whether he deserved / deserves a vote is yet another...

[blue911]

My point was more addressing the hypocrisy of having game memorabilia from a certain player in the Hall but not ALLOWING the player themselves.  Therein lies the difference...

Whether he deserved / deserves to be in the HoF is one thing...whether he deserved / deserves a vote is yet another...

He had 15,000 at bats against major league pitching, that’s 500 a year for 30 years. If that isn’t worthy what is?

[welch]

The issue is whether he deserved / deserves to get the vote...let the chips fall where they may and let the subsequent debate regardless of the outcome begin...

No, Rose bet on baseball. Since the Black Sox scandal broke, betting has been forbidden, and the punishment has been a ban from baseball. People yell that Rose should get into the Hall because he was such a great player. He wasn't though. Yes, there has been a loud publicity campaign that talks him up, probably to such a point that many, many, people believe it even though they never saw him play.

[varoadking]

No, Rose bet on baseball. Since the Black Sox scandal broke, betting has been forbidden, and the punishment has been a ban from baseball. People yell that Rose should get into the Hall because he was such a great player. He wasn't though. Yes, there has been a loud publicity campaign that talks him up, probably to such a point that many, many, people believe it even though they never saw him play.

If you aren't going to allow a vote...then remove his artifacts from the HoF.

...and you can't think he was alone in betting on baseball over all these years...he was just dumb enough to get caught...AND his biggest transgression was lying about it.  Had he come clean, and provided details, he would have never gotten a lifetime ban...at least the way I read things...

Since he is no longer under a lifetime ban...he should be placed on the ballot...

[imref]

If you aren't going to allow a vote...then remove his artifacts from the HoF.

...and you can't think he was alone in betting on baseball over all these years...he was just dumb enough to get caught...AND his biggest transgression was lying about it.  Had he come clean, and provided details, he would have never gotten a lifetime ban...at least the way I read things...

Since he is no longer under a lifetime ban...he should be placed on the ballot...

With Rose, there's also the matter of his relationship with an underage girl. She says she was 14 or 15, Rose says he thought she was 16. Rose was in his early 30's.

[varoadking]

With Rose, there's also the matter of his relationship with an underage girl. She says she was 14 or 15, Rose says he thought she was 16. Rose was in his early 30's.

The issue is either put him on a ballot or take his crap out of Cooperstown.  The HoF shouldn't be in possession of those items or that of others if they refuse to put them on a ballot.  If he's not voted in...then so be it.
 

[JCA-CrystalCity]

I'm not with you on removing his stuff from the HoF
They have stuff from guys who never were on the ballot because they had achievements in games. I will guess they have stuff from the longest game (32 innings at Pawtucket one of the strike years in the early 80s), and I will guess the only HoF ballot candidate may have been Wade Boggs.

As for on the ballot, it's simple. He's eligible. He'll be considered by one of the veteran committees in a couple years. Should he be in? Depends on the ballot. I think you  can still not vote for him if you won't vote for a schmuck, but most games played and most hits, plus some contemporary awards like all star appearances, maybe a RotY and an mvp (I honestly forget), multi positions, and the like make his baseball career hall-worthy.

[imref]

You raise a good point JCA, it’s the national baseball hall of fame “and” museum.

[varoadking]

I'm not with you on removing his stuff from the HoF
They have stuff from guys who never were on the ballot because they had achievements in games. I will guess they have stuff from the longest game (32 innings at Pawtucket one of the strike years in the early 80s), and I will guess the only HoF ballot candidate may have been Wade Boggs.

As for on the ballot, it's simple. He's eligible. He'll be considered by one of the veteran committees in a couple years. Should he be in? Depends on the ballot. I think you  can still not vote for him if you won't vote for a schmuck, but most games played and most hits, plus some contemporary awards like all star appearances, maybe a RotY and an mvp (I honestly forget), multi positions, and the like make his baseball career hall-worthy.

You guys have missed my entire point.  There is stuff from likely hundreds of guys who haven't been voted in...but if you have barred someone from entrance, it's a different story...it's like saying "we're gonna play with your basketball but you can't play."  Bullcrap...I'm takin' my ball and goin' home...

Since the HoF has said he can now be considered, that should remedy the situation...and whether he is voted in or not is moot...

[JCA-CrystalCity]

You guys have missed my entire point.  There is stuff from likely hundreds of guys who haven't been voted in...but if you have barred someone from entrance, it's a different story...it's like saying "we're gonna play with your basketball but you can't play."  Bullcrap...I'm takin' my ball and goin' home...

Since the HoF has said he can now be considered, that should remedy the situation...and whether he is voted in or not is moot...

You are right that I didn't really address the "bar" point. What I'd say is balls, gloves, bats, spikes, uniforms and plaques are MLB baseball's and not Pete Rose's or his estate's, so the Hall should keep them. As you and I recognize, w/r/t to Rose, it's moot because he's no longer barred. I'd add that, other than you so far, no one lives forever, so there's no such thing as a permanent bar from baseball under Manfred's rule. With that the case, there's even less justification for not keeping game memorabilia and write-ups out of the Hall when a guy is under a lifetime ban from baseball.

[varoadking]

You are right that I didn't really address the "bar" point. What I'd say is balls, gloves, bats, spikes, uniforms and plaques are MLB baseball's and not Pete Rose's or his estate's, so the Hall should keep them. As you and I recognize, w/r/t to Rose, it's moot because he's no longer barred. I'd add that, other than you so far, no one lives forever, so there's no such thing as a permanent bar from baseball under Manfred's rule. With that the case, there's even less justification for not keeping game memorabilia and write-ups out of the Hall when a guy is under a lifetime ban from baseball.

As you note...Pete had actually been "Permanently Banned" and Manfred has only just redefined the term "Permanently" to mean "Lifetime"...which is where SJJ and others regain eligibility.