Rose / "Shoeless" Joe Hall-Eligible

[imref]

Manfred rules that the bans end when a player dies.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/45115659/pete-rose-shoeless-joe-jackson-players-reinstated-mlb

I still can't imagine Rose getting enough votes to get inducted.

[varoadking]

Manfred rules that the bans end when a player dies.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/45115659/pete-rose-shoeless-joe-jackson-players-reinstated-mlb

I still can't imagine Rose getting enough votes to get inducted.

This was a smart move by Pee Wee...takes the heat off of MLB.  I can't wait to hear some of the acceptance speeches the family/representatives will deliver in Cooperstown...

[JCA-CrystalCity]

This was a smart move by Pee Wee...takes the heat off of MLB.  I can't wait to hear some of the acceptance speeches the family/representatives will deliver in Cooperstown...

I bet you can't wait.

[varoadking]

I bet you can't wait.

 

[imref]

This was a smart move by Pee Wee...takes the heat off of MLB.  I can't wait to hear some of the acceptance speeches the family/representatives will deliver in Cooperstown...

Pete Rose Induction Ceremony, sponsored by Draft Kings?

[Natsinpwc]

Manfred rules that the bans end when a player dies.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/45115659/pete-rose-shoeless-joe-jackson-players-reinstated-mlb

I still can't imagine Rose getting enough votes to get inducted.

It’s a committee at this point in time.

[nobleisthyname]

Bad decision. Gambling on baseball should be the one line you can never ever cross. Probably helps get MLB on the current administration's good side though as they were lobbying for this.

[imref]

Bad decision. Gambling on baseball should be the one line you can never ever cross. Probably helps get MLB on the current administration's good side though as they were lobbying for this.

with Rose, there's also that small matter of his admitting to having relations with a 16 year old. The gambling should be enough to keep him out of the hall, being with a minor should be enough to keep him banned from baseball.

I highly recommend "Charley Hustle and the Matter of Pete Rose", a documentary on HBO Max. I grew up idolizing Rose (and Tom Seaver). It's a tough watch because he never really accepts that he did anything wrong and it's pretty obvious he had a serious personality disorder.

[English Natsie]

Interesting concept, exoneration thru death. Next - MLB to rehabilitate HItler, Stalin and Pol-Pot, now they're all dead...  

[welch]

Rose was not that good, but he wrote himself into the lineup all those years he managed. Lifetime BA .303. OPS of 784, and OPS+ of 118. 198 stolen bases. Broke in to the majors at 22.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/rosepe01.shtml

Compare Rose to Sam Eice, who got into the Hall through the Veterans Committee, and a heavy campaign by Ty Cobb. Also Shirley Povice, I think. Rice had a lifetime average of .322, 351 stolen bases, an an OPS of .801. OPS+ of 112. Broke in at 29. He pitched until he was 27, spent a year as an outfielder, then served in the US Navy during WW1. Then became a fulltime position player.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/ricesa01.shtml

Rose made the majors in the era of Willie Mays, Frank Robinson, Hank Aaron, Ernie Banks, Lou Brock, and others equally good, and much better than Rose. For all the talk about "Charlie Hustle", Pete Rose was not a Hall of Famer.

[imref]

79.6 career WAR. He’s a first ballot hall of famer if not for the off-field issues.

[GataNats]

Rose is a scumbag pedophile

[HalfSmokes]

79.6 career WAR. He’s a first ballot hall of famer if not for the off-field issues.

Other than the incident, how was the play Mrs Lincoln? One bet on his own team the other either threw the World Series or knew the World Series was being thrown. Neither belong in the hall

[imref]

Other than the incident, how was the play Mrs Lincoln? One bet on his own team the other either threw the World Series or knew the World Series was being thrown. Neither belong in the hall

I agree he doesn’t belong in the hall, but not because of his performance as a player.

[JCA-CrystalCity]

There ought to be an all-time schmucks section of the hall with guys like Cap Anson, Landis, Rose, and several others in it. We can argue about Cobb.

More seriously, Rose's longevity probably should be seen as a plus. He's the all time leader in hits and games played. Did he stick around a few years too long? Maybe, but to end up with an average over .300 in his era should be seen as a plus. In my mind, displaying my Boston bias, I look at Rose like Yaz, who also was mostly an accumulator and longevity guy with some great seasons in his prime.

[varoadking]

I find it interesting that the HoF thinks enough of his accomplishments and contributions to the sport that it has Pete Rose items displayed within it...

Hypocrites...

[JCA-CrystalCity]

It's funny with Jackson that the basic exculpatory argument for him was that he was a dumb as rocks hick who really didn't understand what was going on when he was asked to be in on the fix.

[varoadking]

I find it interesting that the HoF thinks enough of his accomplishments and contributions to the sport that it has Pete Rose items displayed within it...

Hypocrites...

OJ is still in the Football HoF.  So is Ray Lewis, who was voted in after his involvement in someone's homicide...somewhat more egregious than gambling, I would think...

[Count Walewski]

I'm a big Hall guy, I think we should generally allow the marginal players into the Hall of Fame. The Hall is ultimately a museum where people go to learn about baseball and I don't think it's some kind of moral travesty if a kid who visits Cooperstown ends up seeing a plaque about Jim Rice, Harold Baines, or even Kenny Lofton. I don't think it cheapens the accomplishments of Willie Mays or Mickey Mantle to have those guys in there. I'm fine with making the character issue guys wait a little bit more but think they should get in eventually. I think Curt Schilling should make it in.

Where I draw the line is the steroid guys, I don't think they should be let in at all. Unlike somebody's off-the-field antics or an incident involving a small number of games, their entire careers and entire statistical output are in question.

I'd put both Rose and Jackson into the Hall of Fame and I suspect both will eventually be in.

[nobleisthyname]

I find it interesting that the HoF thinks enough of his accomplishments and contributions to the sport that it has Pete Rose items displayed within it...

Hypocrites...

Being a Hall of Famer is an honor for the player. I'm fine with keeping Rose out while still acknowledging his impact on this history of baseball. It's the same thing with Bonds and his record breaking home run balls.

I'm a big Hall guy, I think we should generally allow the marginal players into the Hall of Fame. The Hall is ultimately a museum where people go to learn about baseball and I don't think it's some kind of moral travesty if a kid who visits Cooperstown ends up seeing a plaque about Jim Rice, Harold Baines, or even Kenny Lofton. I don't think it cheapens the accomplishments of Willie Mays or Mickey Mantle to have those guys in there. I'm fine with making the character issue guys wait a little bit more but think they should get in eventually. I think Curt Schilling should make it in.

Where I draw the line is the steroid guys, I don't think they should be let in at all. Unlike somebody's off-the-field antics or an incident involving a small number of games, their entire careers and entire statistical output are in question.

I'd put both Rose and Jackson into the Hall of Fame and I suspect both will eventually be in.

I'm a big hall guy too, but not quite so large as to let Baines in (and Jim Rice and Kenny Lofton were significantly better players than Baines was). I also am kinda split on PED guys. I disagree with keeping those out who took steroids during the 90s to early '00s when MLB all but openly encouraged players to do so, especially since guys like Bud Selig get to be voted in, but I would not vote for anyone who was caught after MLB started enforcing anti-PED rules. So, I'd vote for David Ortiz and Sammy Sosa (and dozens more), but not for Manny Ramirez or Alex Rodriguez.

But as for Shoeless Joe and Rose specifically, their on-field performances are first-ballot worthy, but gambling on baseball is the greatest sin one can commit. In my opinion it's much worse than any off-field character issues (solely in regards to impact on the game of baseball to be clear). Either one being elected would be a significant black mark on the Hall of Fame in my opinion.

[welch]

More seriously, Rose's longevity probably should be seen as a plus. He's the all time leader in hits and games played. Did he stick around a few years too long? Maybe, but to end up with an average over .300 in his era should be seen as a plus. In my mind, displaying my Boston bias, I look at Rose like Yaz, who also was mostly an accumulator and longevity guy with some great seasons in his prime.

Rose played from 1963 until 1981, after which he dragged out those last years trying to win a stat rather than games. His era was that of Rod Carew, who out hit Rose's average .328 / .303, out-slugged Rose .429 / .409, and who finished with a lifetime OPS of .822 while Rose finished with .784. Carew deserves to be in the Hall. People should not be misled by all the public relations rah-rah about Rose. Compare Rose to George Brent, who is also in the HOF. Same era as Carlton Fisk and teammates Tony Perez and Johnny Bench.

While teams feared pitching to Bench, Perez, and George Foster, did they fear Rose, the singles hitter? When you watched the Reds, weren't you more impressed by Ken Griffey?

[Ali the Baseball Cat]

Now he'd get a golf cart parade

It's funny with Jackson that the basic exculpatory argument for him was that he was a dumb as rocks hick who really didn't understand what was going on when he was asked to be in on the fix.

[varoadking]

Being a Hall of Famer is an honor for the player. I'm fine with keeping Rose out while still acknowledging his impact on this history of baseball. It's the same thing with Bonds and his record breaking home run balls.

Bonds hasn't been officially barred from the HoF...so it's quite different...

[varoadking]

Rose played from 1963 until 1981, after which he dragged out those last years trying to win a stat rather than games. His era was that of Rod Carew, who out hit Rose's average .328 / .303, out-slugged Rose .429 / .409, and who finished with a lifetime OPS of .822 while Rose finished with .784. Carew deserves to be in the Hall. People should not be misled by all the public relations rah-rah about Rose. Compare Rose to George Brent, who is also in the HOF. Same era as Carlton Fisk and teammates Tony Perez and Johnny Bench.

While teams feared pitching to Bench, Perez, and George Foster, did they fear Rose, the singles hitter? When you watched the Reds, weren't you more impressed by Ken Griffey?

The issue is whether he deserved / deserves to get the vote...let the chips fall where they may and let the subsequent debate regardless of the outcome begin...

[nobleisthyname]

Bonds hasn't been officially barred from the HoF...so it's quite different...

Well, Bonds also didn't bet on baseball

My point was more addressing the supposed hypocrisy of having game memorabilia from a certain player in the Hall but not the player themselves.