Author Topic: Longshots: Soto to the Nats in 2025? Avengers Beat Thanos?  (Read 1573 times)

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Offline OfftheBat

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Bring him home! Get it done, Lerners!  ... One can dream, right? :)

Offline varoadking

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We've already seen how $70MM/year in two dead contracts has impacted the Nats...we don't need to tie up that kind of money in one player just so we can relive these past 5 years again...

By the same token, Rizzo needs to stop diving in Boras' dumpster to fill a roster.  The Gallo signing was a huge to the fan base.


Online Slateman

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Not sure how Soto is a "dead contract.'

Offline varoadking

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Not sure how Soto is a "dead contract.'

Yeah...not really a great analogy, I guess...just don't like having such an unbalanced roster. 

Plug Soto into the rest of this mess and see how much things change...likely not much...

Online Slateman

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Yeah...not really a great analogy, I guess...just don't like having such an unbalanced roster. 

Plug Soto into the rest of this mess and see how much things change...likely not much...
Are you daft? If you replace Eddie Rosario with Juan Soto, we're a WC team.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Are you daft? What are you, dense?
In memory of DcFan

Offline Natsinpwc

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Yeah...not really a great analogy, I guess...just don't like having such an unbalanced roster. 

Plug Soto into the rest of this mess and see how much things change...likely not much...
Well obviously. Which is why they traded him in the first place. If they really were going to spend that much (which I doubt) then you could get three good players for that.

Offline IanRubbish

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This team has $50m in deferrals next year including Stras.  It's not a luxury tax issue, but still cash out of the Lerners pockets.  The only way they'd ever come close to what Boras wants would be more heavy deferrals which cause problems in future years.  This isn't going to happen.  A solid DH and 1B on short-term contracts are a better and more likely focus.

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Offline Senatorswin

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If they really were going to spend that much (which I doubt) then you could get three good players for that.

Seems to me that's how they won the World Series. When they couldn't agree on a contract with Harper early in the off-season they spent the money on multiple other player, became a team, and the rest is history.

Online Slateman

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In honor of his return to DC tonight, what does a Soto contract look like and could the Nationals have an advantage.

To walk through this, let's make some assumptions. The first is that Boras and Soto will want to set some records, both in overall contract and AAV. Ohtani's 700 million for 10 years of play is untouchable, but if you take the numbers that the league evaluates it as with deferrals, its much more manageable. For luxury tax purposes, Ohtani's deal is 10 years, 460 million (46 million AAV). So the first assumption is that Boras/Soto are seeking a contract that is in excess of 46 million AAV and 460 million dollars.

Ohtani got to 700 million due to a crap ton of deferred money. I suspect Ohtani was willing to do this for a couple reasons. The first is that he makes a ton of money on promotional and endorsement deals. Apparently, he made like $65 million last year. He can afford to defer a lot of money. I also am betting that somehow, there are better tax implications for not living in California when the deal is done. Then again, if he moves back to Japan, probably not. In the offers to Soto when he was in DC, there were no deferrals. We didn't hear anything from the Padres on their negotiations. For our second assumption, we will assume minimal deferrals, if any. To be honest, deferred money gives the Nationals more of an advantage in negotiations, IMO.

Third assumption: Soto is not fundamentally opposed to coming back to DC. I don't know if this is true, but he seemed to be genuinely hurt that he got traded. He is having a career year in NY, but he won a World Series here. I assume that if the money can be right, he's willing to come back to DC.

Another aspect of the contract negotiations is taxes. Sounds silly but apparently, these guys have money people that keep them abreast of taxes. New York (either the Yankees or the Mets) seem like the front runners to sign Soto. The Giants and the Dodgers are also in the mix. DC has an agreement with Maryland and Virginia  that people who work in the city pay taxes to either state if they reside there. When Soto was a National, he lived in Arlington, VA. So its reasoable to assume he would choose Virginia if he were to sign with the Nationals (after all, who in the right mind would live in Maryland if they had a choice  :lol:  ) The tax difference between Virginia and New York is about 7-8 percent. Between Virginia and California, its like 12%. Final assumption: The Nationals money will go a bit further than New York's or a California-based team.

Edit: The Lerners are willing to substantially add payroll and The Lerners view next year's payroll at about 75 million, per my breakdown: https://www.wnff.net/index.php?topic=41413.msg2333860#msg2333860


So with that, the Nationals could offer something like 12 years, 565 million, which would have the same after tax take home of the Mets offering a 600 million dollar deal and a California based team offering close to 700 million. At 12 years, it puts the AAV at 47 million AAV, which breaks Ohtani's record by a million. And maybe he's willing to take some deferred money to get to the 600 million dollar threshold. The Nats could even get creative and add some opt outs after a certain amount of time (like, say his age 29 or 30 season).


Offline nobleisthyname

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If the Nats offered that I think Soto would listen. But I just don't see the Lerners topping what they offered him in 2022, which will be nowhere near good enough.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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I don't think the 12, $565 million is unrealistic for what it would take. OTOH, if he were just looking to take out the AAV record, it may be possible to go shorter in terms of years. He's young enough that a front-loaded contract with a high AAV, one that is structured to make an opt-out likely when he hits 30 but which protects him some from an injury with a player option at that point, might work. Say (gulp), $220 million , 4 year contract, with a players' option for 6 more years at $35 million per year. That goes down as a $55 million AAV. In terms of cash flow, he opts out once Wood and Crews get expensive. Those guys and House don't pan out, there's money to re-sign Soto if the team wants.

Online Slateman

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If the Nats offered that I think Soto would listen. But I just don't see the Lerners topping what they offered him in 2022, which will be nowhere near good enough.
Oh, good point. Thats another two assumptions

The Lerners are willing to expand payroll. The Lerners view next year's payroll at about 75 million, per my breakdown: https://www.wnff.net/index.php?topic=41413.msg2333860#msg2333860

Online Slateman

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I don't think the 12, $565 million is unrealistic for what it would take. OTOH, if he were just looking to take out the AAV record, it may be possible to go shorter in terms of years. He's young enough that a front-loaded contract with a high AAV, one that is structured to make an opt-out likely when he hits 30 but which protects him some from an injury with a player option at that point, might work. Say (gulp), $220 million , 4 year contract, with a players' option for 6 more years at $35 million per year. That goes down as a $55 million AAV. In terms of cash flow, he opts out once Wood and Crews get expensive. Those guys and House don't pan out, there's money to re-sign Soto if the team wants.
Oh thats interesting too.

Add an additional year  and make every year after the 4 a player option. That puts the total over 460 million, but gives him the AAV for the first four years.

Offline imref

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We've already seen how $70MM/year in two dead contracts has impacted the Nats...we don't need to tie up that kind of money in one player just so we can relive these past 5 years again...

By the same token, Rizzo needs to stop diving in Boras' dumpster to fill a roster.  The Gallo signing was a huge  to the fan base.

And yet Gallo (.741 OPS in 2023) was arguably an upgrade over Dominick Smith (.692) and Joey Meneses (.722).

Offline varoadking

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And yet Gallo (.741 OPS in 2023) was arguably an upgrade over Dominick Smith (.692) and Joey Meneses (.722).

Low bar...

Offline Five Banners

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And yet Gallo (.741 OPS in 2023) was arguably an upgrade over Dominick Smith (.692) and Joey Meneses (.722).

$5M and occupying a roster spot for somebody who figured to potentially not be much of a tradable asset at that price seems to work against that argument

Offline Smithian

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Considering I have no reason to believe the Nationals are going to become a Top 5 payroll annually, I'm not interested in the Soto sweepstakes. I don't think the Nationals will spend enough to build around him.

This is Soto's best year as a pro, aided by defensive improvement, and I just am not going to bet on his contract year production. A lot of his value is is bat in the corner OF versus 1B, and I don't think he is going to be a long-term corner outfield bat.

I don't think Juan Soto makes the Nationals a championship contender overnight. Therefore, I'm fine passing on him and saving roster flexibility.

Offline imref

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I disagree. Putting Soto at DH or 1B for the next 10 years, alongside Wood, Crews, Abrams, and House, instantly makes us a contender (all the more so if we also add a front-line SP to the rotation).

Offline varoadking

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I disagree. Putting Soto at DH or 1B for the next 10 years, alongside Wood, Crews, Abrams, and House, instantly makes us a contender (all the more so if we also add a front-line SP to the rotation).

I realize we are all desperate for a winner, but there are a couple of flaws in your logic...
1.  Soto is the only 1 of those 5 that has proved enough at the MLB level at this point...2 of them haven't even sniffed MLB yet...
2.  None of those other 4 guys are gonna be here for the next 10 years, especially if the Nats are paying Soto $50MM/yr.
3.  Soto isn't coming here...

Offline Smithian

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I realize we are all desperate for a winner, but there are a couple of flaws in your logic...
1.  Soto is the only 1 of those 5 that has proved enough at the MLB level at this point...2 of them haven't even sniffed MLB yet...
2.  None of those other 4 guys are gonna be here for the next 10 years, especially if the Nats are paying Soto $50MM/yr.
Sums it up for me.

The Nationals already showed one time that Juan Soto can be the star hitter on a World Series team. The problem is I think a lineup over the next couple years with a record paid Juan Soto looks more 2019 LA Angels than the 2019 Washington Nationals.

Offline Senatorswin

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The Nats can afford it. If Soto signed here attendance would probably jump to top 10. I can't remember though any of the top free agents signing with a team that doesn't have a mega local TV deal except the Padres and I don't think they're in that game anymore since the owner died.

Offline nobleisthyname

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This is Soto's best year as a pro, aided by defensive improvement, and I just am not going to bet on his contract year production. A lot of his value is is bat in the corner OF versus 1B, and I don't think he is going to be a long-term corner outfield bat.

I know you're not saying he's an overrated hitter, but one of my favorite stat comparisons is that Soto's worse offensive season (2019 - 143 wRC+) is still better than Harper's average offensive season (142 wRC+). Dude is a stud and will be an inner-circle HOF'er when he retires.

Offline IanRubbish

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Soto's putting up walk year numbers.  He's never had a .300 ISO before nor a 1.000 OPS except during the COVID year.  He's got a great eye but he doesn't have Aaron Judge power and will not be worth the "reset the market" deal Boras will want.  He'll be Met or Angel or playing for some franchise that's used to paying players for what they did elsewhere.