Author Topic: Expansion  (Read 369 times)

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Offline Senatorswin

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Expansion
« Topic Start: December 04, 2023, 12:23:13 PM »
Word is now that the Tampa and Oakland problems have been solved MLB will be ready to expand. Dave Stewart will be at the winter meetings pitching Nashville as one of two new cities. One of them should be in North Carolina. I would like to see the other be Montreal. When you look at the location of present teams it does look like fans in the upper northwest only have Seattle so maybe they could use some company.

Online imref

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Re: Expansion
« Reply #1: December 04, 2023, 12:41:58 PM »
Portland, Charlotte, Nashville would all make sense.

Offline Senatorswin

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Re: Expansion
« Reply #2: December 04, 2023, 12:49:58 PM »
Portland, Charlotte, Nashville would all make sense.

Yep, I suspect two of those three cities will be smiling in two years.

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Expansion
« Reply #3: December 04, 2023, 01:09:40 PM »
Portland has the same problem that we do- Seattle out right owns the TV rights

Online imref

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Re: Expansion
« Reply #4: December 04, 2023, 01:14:36 PM »
Portland has the same problem that we do- Seattle out right owns the TV rights
Could the league force the Orioles to move to Portland?

Offline UMDNats

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Re: Expansion
« Reply #5: December 04, 2023, 01:16:51 PM »
Nashville's new mayor has already told MLB to look elsewhere FWIW. The Dave Stewart group is comical and just a PR campaign, not a real group. The state just saddled Nashville with half a bill in stadium costs for the Titans, so I suspect a stadium is going to have to go in Williamson County like the Braves rather than downtown Nashville like MLB probably wants. Williamson County is basically MLB's target demo (rich mostly conservative white people) so it makes sense financially if they can find a good site for it. No public transit at all which is a problem for attracting tourists out there. Lots of road blocks to a potential team, and that's assuming they can even find a billionaire who wants to do it.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Expansion
« Reply #6: December 04, 2023, 01:27:43 PM »
I wonder if the fact that North Carolina has so many minor league teams might be a negative for Charlotte. In comparison to Portland, there's some potential for damage, and it's not 100% clear that a Durham fan, for example, will switch allegiances.

Offline UMDNats

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Re: Expansion
« Reply #7: December 04, 2023, 01:31:07 PM »
Charlotte is the Panera Bread of cities so they would do just fine attracting normies to games especially with likely divisional games vs. teams a short drive/flight away like Atlanta, DC, Baltimore, etc. I hope an MLB team in Charlotte is named the Baseball Club and the stadium looks like a generic template. You only really need to look at the Panthers as evidence you can sustain a pro team in a college environment there.

Online imref

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Re: Expansion
« Reply #8: December 04, 2023, 02:13:54 PM »
Charlotte is the Panera Bread of cities so they would do just fine attracting normies to games especially with likely divisional games vs. teams a short drive/flight away like Atlanta, DC, Baltimore, etc. I hope an MLB team in Charlotte is named the Baseball Club and the stadium looks like a generic template. You only really need to look at the Panthers as evidence you can sustain a pro team in a college environment there.
Bobcats is available for a name. Bankers would fit too.  I guess the AAA Knights would have to relocate if they get a major league team. Maybe to Oakland?

Offline Ali the Baseball Cat

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Re: Expansion
« Reply #9: December 04, 2023, 02:21:36 PM »
Pumpkin Spice Park
Charlotte is the Panera Bread of cities so they would do just fine attracting normies to games especially with likely divisional games vs. teams a short drive/flight away like Atlanta, DC, Baltimore, etc. I hope an MLB team in Charlotte is named the Baseball Club and the stadium looks like a generic template. You only really need to look at the Panthers as evidence you can sustain a pro team in a college environment there.

Online nfotiu

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Re: Expansion
« Reply #10: December 04, 2023, 02:25:38 PM »
I think they'll need to figure out what the future of local TV looks like before they can think about expansion.   Local TV issues are already making the Nats, Os, and Angels tough to sell.   Any team assocated with Bally's is going to be tough to sell this year.   

There won't be an existing RSN in North Carolina or Tennessee after 2024, and launching a new one is not currently viable, so I don't know how you can start up a new team without knowing what local TV is going to look like.

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Expansion
« Reply #11: December 04, 2023, 02:44:55 PM »
I think they'll need to figure out what the future of local TV looks like before they can think about expansion.   Local TV issues are already making the Nats, Os, and Angels tough to sell.   Any team assocated with Bally's is going to be tough to sell this year.   

There won't be an existing RSN in North Carolina or Tennessee after 2024, and launching a new one is not currently viable, so I don't know how you can start up a new team without knowing what local TV is going to look like.

Maybe. The flop side is that expansion fees can be used to offset team losses. For awhile, the MLS looked like a pyramid scheme because the major source of revenue for existing clubs was expansion fees from new clubs

Online nfotiu

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Re: Expansion
« Reply #12: December 04, 2023, 03:00:53 PM »
Maybe. The flop side is that expansion fees can be used to offset team losses. For awhile, the MLS looked like a pyramid scheme because the major source of revenue for existing clubs was expansion fees from new clubs
True, as long as you can find owners.   There hasn't been an MLB team sold since 2020, and the 3 teams who somewhat tried to sell during that time couldn't get what they wanted, so it doesn't look like there are a whole lot of potential owners wanting to buy in right now.

Offline Senatorswin

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Re: Expansion
« Reply #13: December 04, 2023, 03:05:45 PM »
True, as long as you can find owners.   There hasn't been an MLB team sold since 2020, and the 3 teams who somewhat tried to sell during that time couldn't get what they wanted, so it doesn't look like there are a whole lot of potential owners wanting to buy in right now.

Lerner needs to lower his price for the Nats. He wants the same money the Mets were sold for.

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Expansion
« Reply #14: December 04, 2023, 03:26:11 PM »
Lerner needs to lower his price for the Nats. He wants the same money the Mets were sold for.

Moreno can't get the price he wants in LA either. These owners are all being advised by sophisticated investment banks. I think it's less they are asking for too much and more there just aren't buyers. I don't know if that would extend to expansion franchises though. There may be billionaires who want a local team and are willing to pay an expansion fee, but don't want to buy a team, find a way to buy out a lease and become hated nationally, and then pay a relocation fee 

Offline Senatorswin

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Re: Expansion
« Reply #15: December 04, 2023, 03:50:39 PM »
Moreno can't get the price he wants in LA either. These owners are all being advised by sophisticated investment banks. I think it's less they are asking for too much and more there just aren't buyers. I don't know if that would extend to expansion franchises though. There may be billionaires who want a local team and are willing to pay an expansion fee, but don't want to buy a team, find a way to buy out a lease and become hated nationally, and then pay a relocation fee

According to the Post article Sunday Leonsis offered $2 billion for the Nats but Lerner wanted the $2.4 billion that was paid for the Mets. As of last March the Mets were the 6th most valuable team and the Nats 12th. 

Offline Mattionals

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Re: Expansion
« Reply #16: December 04, 2023, 04:46:12 PM »
According to the Post article Sunday Leonsis offered $2 billion for the Nats but Lerner wanted the $2.4 billion that was paid for the Mets. As of last March the Mets were the 6th most valuable team and the Nats 12th.
Inflation. Also, does Wilpon's sketchy investments play into "de-valuing" the Mets at all? He also bought back in 2020. Nats have been for sale since 2021 where things are more expensive.

Online Natsinpwc

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Re: Expansion
« Reply #17: December 04, 2023, 06:03:59 PM »
Inflation. Also, does Wilpon's sketchy investments play into "de-valuing" the Mets at all? He also bought back in 2020. Nats have been for sale since 2021 where things are more expensive.
A Washington team will never sell for as much as a NY team.  Unless you separate them by a decade. 

Online Five Banners

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Re: Expansion
« Reply #18: December 04, 2023, 06:26:40 PM »
A Washington team will never sell for as much as a NY team.  Unless you separate them by a decade.

It brings to mind how the Redskins sold for a record price of $800 million in 1999 and the Jets sold a year later for $635 million, with the main difference being the inclusion of the Raljohn stadium, of which Cooke reportedly paid $180 million.

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Expansion
« Reply #19: December 04, 2023, 06:30:51 PM »
A Washington team will never sell for as much as a NY team.  Unless you separate them by a decade. 

Baseball teams used to have a lot more value relative to other sports. The suns just sold for $4 billion. I don’t think the owners like the slip

Online Natsinpwc

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Re: Expansion
« Reply #20: December 04, 2023, 06:44:32 PM »
It brings to mind how the Redskins sold for a record price of $800 million in 1999 and the Jets sold a year later for $635 million, with the main difference being the inclusion of the Raljohn stadium, of which Cooke reportedly paid $180 million.
For years the Redskins and Cowboys were the most valuable franchises   

Online Natsinpwc

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Re: Expansion
« Reply #21: December 04, 2023, 06:44:59 PM »
Baseball teams used to have a lot more value relative to other sports. The suns just sold for $4 billion. I don’t think the owners like the slip
It’s so tough to be rich. 

Online nfotiu

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Re: Expansion
« Reply #22: December 04, 2023, 08:37:32 PM »
Baseball teams used to have a lot more value relative to other sports. The suns just sold for $4 billion. I don’t think the owners like the slip
So much of the value of these franchises is in the appreciation over time.   The other owners have to approves sales.   Any sale that doesn't prop up the values of all the other teams is probably not going to go through. 

It's possible the other owners told the Lerners that Leonsis's offer wasn't enough to get approved.

Online Five Banners

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Re: Expansion
« Reply #23: December 04, 2023, 09:02:54 PM »
So much of the value of these franchises is in the appreciation over time.   The other owners have to approves sales.   Any sale that doesn't prop up the values of all the other teams is probably not going to go through. 

It's possible the other owners told the Lerners that Leonsis's offer wasn't enough to get approved.

Good point

Offline Senatorswin

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Re: Expansion
« Reply #24: December 04, 2023, 09:19:16 PM »
It brings to mind how the Redskins sold for a record price of $800 million in 1999 and the Jets sold a year later for $635 million, with the main difference being the inclusion of the Raljohn stadium, of which Cooke reportedly paid $180 million.

Cooke built that stadium with his money. PG County and/or the state of Maryland paid for the infrastructure. An article in the Post this Sunday said when Harris and Co. bought the Commanders the stadium and 200 acres it's on and the land around it came with it. So they bought the Commanders for $6 billion. I wonder how much the stadium and land are worth. I would think the stadium might be a negative because it would need to be torn down once the Commanders move even if they build the new stadium on the 200 acres.