Author Topic: 2024 Rotation  (Read 2529 times)

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Offline CoryTheFormerExposFan

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2024 Rotation
« Topic Start: August 13, 2023, 12:22:40 AM »
Right now, we can safely pencil in 3 of the 5 SP with Gray, Gore, and Corbin.  Will Rizzo be given a greenlight to sign a significant free agent?  In recent years we've given major long-term money to 3 SP: Max, Stras, and Corbin.  Max has been said to be one of the greatest free agent signings of all-time.  We all know what has happened to Stras since he opted out and got his new deal, and of course Corbin was really good through the World Series and then terrible, although not due to any injury.  So one guy stayed (mostly) healthy and performed at a HOF level, another guy had a career-ending injury, and another guy gave value then fell off a cliff while still in what should've been his prime years and not due to any unfortunate injury.  So, it's risky to invest in these guys.

I prefer what the Braves have done in spending their money locking up their young position players, then mixing in short-term vet SP deals like Morton in with their homegrown SP.  Morton signed last October for 20 mill for this year and a 20 mill option for 2024.  I think we should look for a similar deal.  With a lack of established workhorse SP, this eats innings, pushes us further to contending in the next year or 2, gives us a potential trade chip if we aren't contending, and bridges to when we're really expecting to compete and can then see where we are with our rotation and if at that time we need to go out and sign a big-time free agent or trade from our emerging farm system. 

1. Gray - Gray is arbitration eligible in 2025, so at 25 currently, we have him locked up through his prime years.  He's been durable thus far, and has taken a major step forward this year to the prospect ranking we expected when we got him from the Dodgers.  I'm not sure if he has true #1 or #2 "Ace" ability on a contender, but he could get there, and at minimum should be a solid #3/4.
2. Gore - Finishing this season healthy and getting to the point he can make 30 -32 starts and 175+ IP would be a big win.  He's flashed his potential, and hopefully makes a big leap forward in 2024.  He was once arguably the top pitching prospect in baseball, and we kind of got him as a throw in in the Soto deal.  Gore is just 24 and, like Gray, is arbitration eligible in 2025.  We have 2 rotation stalwarts locked up through their mid to late 20s, which is what you want. 
3. Corbin - Corbin has done one thing well since the World Series in 2019, and that's take the ball every turn and eat innings.  At least this season he's managed to keep his ERA under 5 and not be the worst SP in baseball.  He'll start the season in the rotation next year, and depending on Cavalli's return in the Summer and the development/health of other SPs, we'll see what becomes of him in the last season of his deal.  Could he find a way to stay in the big leagues a few more years by becoming a lefty out the bullpen ala the 2019 postseason?  Will the Nats try him in the bullpen at some point and see if he can either help us if we're in the Wild Card race, or audition him for a contender at the deadline?  Do we pick up most of his remaining pro-rated salary and hope to find another Lane Thomas in return?

If nobody else is acquired, and even if they are, Williams should have 1 of the remaining 2 spots, at least to start the year.  I'd like to see him eventually move to the bullpen as a swing guy, because to me he's just a less durable (track record) version of Corbin as a starter.  He's making 7 mill next year before he hits free agency, so he's basically a much less expensive version of Corbin as a potential trade chip or someone we keep in our bullpen if needed and we're contending. 

Who else currently in the system could grab a spot?  Right now the leader has to be Irvin based on him already making 18 starts this year and being similarly mediocre to Corbin/Williams.  He's 26, and wasn't a top prospect, just a 4th round pick out of Oklahoma in 2018 that gives you controllable organizational depth.  I don't see the greatest upside, so he's likely at some point pushed out of the rotation as a spare part.  But for now, he can be somewhat serviceable. 

Adon is a guy I see upside for...as a reliever.  He can compete for a rotation spot next Spring, but I think I'd rather see him develop out of the bullpen with the big club than continue to start in AAA. 

The prospect that should be getting close is Rutledge.  He's 24, and was picked 17th in the 1st round in 2019.  6'8" guys like him can take longer to develop.  His 12 AA starts this year were good, but his 8 AAA starts have been mediocre.  He doesn't look ready yet, but next year is the time for him to stake a claim in the rotation of the future.

Then of course Cavalli will be back at some point next Summer. 

If nobody is acquired, I'd like to see this rotation next Summer:

Gray
Gore
Cavalli
Rutledge
Irvin

We really need to start building the pitching depth in the system.  Jake Bennett (2022 2nd Round pick) is the only real prospect besides Rutledge yet to debut that we could see in 2024.  I think Herz ends up in the bullpen next year at some point.  Sykora and Susana are just 19.  Can Henry emerge?  Am I missing anybody of note?

Online Slateman

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Re: 2024 Rotation
« Reply #1: August 13, 2023, 07:46:06 AM »
Package Wood, Lipscomb, and Bennet to the Mariners for Logan Gilbert.

Gilbert
Gray
Gore
Irvin
Williams

Corbin is converted to reliever. One of Williams or Irvin goes to the pen in late May/early June when Cavalli is ready to return from TJS.

Call up Crews in late May and make a push for the postseason.

Offline Natsinpwc

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Re: 2024 Rotation
« Reply #2: August 13, 2023, 08:10:36 AM »
Package Wood, Lipscomb, and Bennet to the Mariners for Logan Gilbert.

Gilbert
Gray
Gore
Irvin
Williams

Corbin is converted to reliever. One of Williams or Irvin goes to the pen in late May/early June when Cavalli is ready to return from TJS.

Call up Crews in late May and make a push for the postseason.
What’s Gilbert’s contract status?

Online Slateman

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Re: 2024 Rotation
« Reply #3: August 13, 2023, 08:13:41 AM »
What’s Gilbert’s contract status?
Four more years of control after this season.

Offline nobleisthyname

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Re: 2024 Rotation
« Reply #4: August 13, 2023, 08:47:01 AM »
Package Wood, Lipscomb, and Bennet to the Mariners for Logan Gilbert.

Gilbert
Gray
Gore
Irvin
Williams

Corbin is converted to reliever. One of Williams or Irvin goes to the pen in late May/early June when Cavalli is ready to return from TJS.

Call up Crews in late May and make a push for the postseason.

I've seen you come up with hypothetical packages for Cease as well. Whom do you like better? Gilbert is having the better year and has more team control while Cease has had the best peak.

Online Slateman

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Re: 2024 Rotation
« Reply #5: August 13, 2023, 08:58:36 AM »
Gilbert 's four years is way more valuable. And I dont think there is much difference between Gilbert's peak and Cease's

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: 2024 Rotation
« Reply #6: August 13, 2023, 09:47:21 AM »
I prefer what the Braves have done in spending their money locking up their young position players, then mixing in short-term vet SP deals like Morton in with their homegrown SP. Morton signed last October for 20 mill for this year and a 20 mill option for 2024.  I think we should look for a similar deal.  With a lack of established workhorse SP, this eats innings, pushes us further to contending in the next year or 2, gives us a potential trade chip if we aren't contending, and bridges to when we're really expecting to compete and can then see where we are with our rotation and if at that time we need to go out and sign a big-time free agent or trade from our emerging farm system. 
I'm on board with this approach to building a pitching staff. If you can fill 3-4 positions internally and another two with short term free agents seems efficient and close to what we have in terms of pitching depth. Gore and Gray look like two longer term controlled rotation pieces, and I suspect we have another in-house among the assorted Irvins, Rutledges, Bennetts, etc...  over the next year or two. It's probably too much to hope that Henry fills a slot.

Rather than a big push for Gilbert, who you are trying to pry from a team that's contending, I'd rather see if we can swarm the majors with a group of position players and fill in with vets around them.

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Re: 2024 Rotation
« Reply #7: August 13, 2023, 09:58:04 AM »
We dont have a top of the rotation guy though. Gray is pronably a 3 and we still have no idea what Cavalli and Gore are going to be.

Also, Gore and Gray still havent had TJS. So its pretty likely one of them will have to bite that bullet in the next three years. We can use the Rutledges and Irvins as depth pieces.

But in a elimination game, who do you want taking the ball? It certainly isnt Gray or Gore right now.

Also, Im assuming that the Lerners arent selling and that they dont want to blow up payroll. If they do, I'd just go get Urias

Offline imref

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Re: 2024 Rotation
« Reply #8: August 13, 2023, 10:50:44 AM »
Other than Ohtani, there aren't a lot of top of the rotation starters available via FA next year.

https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/free-agents/starting-pitcher/

Eduardo Rodriguez would be nice.


Offline OfftheBat

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Re: 2024 Rotation
« Reply #9: August 13, 2023, 11:11:44 AM »
Other than Ohtani, there aren't a lot of top of the rotation starters available via FA next year.

https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/free-agents/starting-pitcher/

Eduardo Rodriguez would be nice.

I agree that he would be a nice addition to the ball club, however isn't there an issue with him wanting to stay in Michigan due to his family currently living there? That's allegedly why he refused to be traded to the Dodgers a few weeks ago, if I'm not mistaken.

Online Slateman

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Re: 2024 Rotation
« Reply #10: August 13, 2023, 11:18:07 AM »
Rodriguez is the LAST guy I want in DC. He couldnt leave his family for a couple months to go win a WS? freak bringing that dude here.

Offline Natsinpwc

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Re: 2024 Rotation
« Reply #11: August 13, 2023, 12:04:04 PM »
Is there any reason to believe the Nats ownership will want to sign anyone to a four or five year deal given the sale up in the air?  Would be looking more for a two year deal for an older guy.  Sonny Gray anyone?

Offline Senatorswin

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Re: 2024 Rotation
« Reply #12: August 13, 2023, 12:10:12 PM »
It's doubtful the Nats would trade Wood. Who knows if he'll turn out to be what some project him to be, but General Managers not named Preller are reluctant to trade a player rated that high because they don't want to be remembered as the GM that traded "THAT GUY". Supposedly teams went after Holliday hard at the trade deadline but the O's wouldn't listen.

Offline welch

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Re: 2024 Rotation
« Reply #13: August 13, 2023, 12:35:48 PM »
Is Urias a free agent this November? Baseball ref says "Signed through 2023. Earliest free agent 2024". Does the 2024 season begin as soon as the 2023 season ends? If so, sign Urias. None of the rest of them look anything like Max, and they are all 30 years and older.

Joe Ross will be available, though.

Offline imref

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Re: 2024 Rotation
« Reply #14: August 13, 2023, 12:46:01 PM »
Is Urias a free agent this November? Baseball ref says "Signed through 2023. Earliest free agent 2024". Does the 2024 season begin as soon as the 2023 season ends? If so, sign Urias. None of the rest of them look anything like Max, and they are all 30 years and older.

Joe Ross will be available, though.

that means he's a FA at the end of the 2023 season. 

Ross spent the whole year on the DL. I guess he couldn't come back from TJ?

Online Slateman

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Re: 2024 Rotation
« Reply #15: August 13, 2023, 12:54:40 PM »
Is Urias a free agent this November? Baseball ref says "Signed through 2023. Earliest free agent 2024". Does the 2024 season begin as soon as the 2023 season ends? If so, sign Urias. None of the rest of them look anything like Max, and they are all 30 years and older.

Joe Ross will be available, though.
He's a free agent at the end of this season.

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Re: 2024 Rotation
« Reply #16: August 13, 2023, 01:46:38 PM »
Alternatively, I would trade Thomas and a kicker or two for Bryan Woo. Especially if we could get Rhys Hoskins/Cody Bellinger/Joc Pederson to bridge the gap (competitively) until Hassel is ready

Offline CoryTheFormerExposFan

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Re: 2024 Rotation
« Reply #17: August 13, 2023, 02:36:42 PM »
Package Wood, Lipscomb, and Bennet to the Mariners for Logan Gilbert.

Gilbert
Gray
Gore
Irvin
Williams

Corbin is converted to reliever. One of Williams or Irvin goes to the pen in late May/early June when Cavalli is ready to return from TJS.

Call up Crews in late May and make a push for the postseason.

Aside from if we'd want to do this, why would Seattle?  They're pushing to becoming a contender with a young core.

Offline CoryTheFormerExposFan

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Re: 2024 Rotation
« Reply #18: August 13, 2023, 02:39:58 PM »
Alternatively, I would trade Thomas and a kicker or two for Bryan Woo. Especially if we could get Rhys Hoskins/Cody Bellinger/Joc Pederson to bridge the gap (competitively) until Hassel is ready

Hoskins after missing all of this season and being a 1B is a guy that could be had on a short-term affordable contract.  I like the idea of him bridging us to maybe Yo Yo in a few years being the 1B of the future. 

Bellinger is in no way signing a short-term pillow contract again with what he's doing this year, and we have no reason to give major long-term money to a volatile OF with a system stacked with OF prospects. 

Thomas for Woo could make sense for us, as Woo looks like a middle of the rotation guy and is just a rookie with a lot of control left.  I don't see why it makes sense for Seattle.

Offline CoryTheFormerExposFan

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Re: 2024 Rotation
« Reply #19: August 13, 2023, 02:47:12 PM »
We do ultimately need an "Ace" or even 2 to win in the postseason.  Those are guys you give 7 years and 200+ million to.  Before risking being saddled with another dead weight Stras or Corbin contract, I'd rather see what happens the next few years with our own guys and try signing someone short-term like the Braves did with Morton to bridge the gap.  In a couple years, we'll see what the lineup looks like with Crews, Wood, House, etc, how Gray and Gore have developed, and if anybody else in the system has locked up a rotation spot.  We'll also then know if we have excess high-end prospects to possibly deal for a SP.  Maybe Crews and Wood hold down 2 OF spots and we only need 1 of Hassell, Green, Lile, and Vaquero.  That would position us to trade for someone, maybe even someone younger with some control if someone like Green is showing his potential.

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Re: 2024 Rotation
« Reply #20: August 13, 2023, 03:42:06 PM »
Aside from if we'd want to do this, why would Seattle?  They're pushing to becoming a contender with a young core.
They have a lot of young, good pitching. They need another OFer and a second baseman.

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Re: 2024 Rotation
« Reply #21: August 13, 2023, 03:43:48 PM »
Hoskins after missing all of this season and being a 1B is a guy that could be had on a short-term affordable contract.  I like the idea of him bridging us to maybe Yo Yo in a few years being the 1B of the future. 

Bellinger is in no way signing a short-term pillow contract again with what he's doing this year, and we have no reason to give major long-term money to a volatile OF with a system stacked with OF prospects. 

Thomas for Woo could make sense for us, as Woo looks like a middle of the rotation guy and is just a rookie with a lot of control left.  I don't see why it makes sense for Seattle.
I dont think the market for Bellinger is going to be nearly as hot as he thinks it is. One good year, with him significantly exceeding his peripherals, wont make up for the last three bad ones.

I think we can get him on a 1 year, ~20 million with a player option for a second year.

I think Woo becomes our number 1 if he is here next season. He has great stuff and since finding a cutter, lefties dont destroy him. His command would easily becone the best our team.

Offline raleighnat

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Re: 2024 Rotation
« Reply #22: August 13, 2023, 05:55:49 PM »
Package Wood, Lipscomb, and Bennet to the Mariners for Logan Gilbert.

Gilbert
Gray
Gore
Irvin
Williams

Corbin is converted to reliever. One of Williams or Irvin goes to the pen in late May/early June when Cavalli is ready to return from TJS.

Call up Crews in late May and make a push for the postseason.

I think that kind of plan is a little rushed.  We will need an ace.  But we need to see what we have in Wood and Lipscomb and the rest of the position players.  We finally have a big group coming up in the next year or two and we need to be a little more patient IMO.  Surely we can sign a solid innings eater to upgrade Williams without breaking the bank this offseason. 

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Re: 2024 Rotation
« Reply #23: August 13, 2023, 06:17:20 PM »
I think that kind of plan is a little rushed.  We will need an ace.  But we need to see what we have in Wood and Lipscomb and the rest of the position players.  We finally have a big group coming up in the next year or two and we need to be a little more patient IMO.  Surely we can sign a solid innings eater to upgrade Williams without breaking the bank this offseason. 

"Solid innings eaters" cost 70 million. A good innings eater is going to run you 9 figures. Frankly, I'd rather trade Wood and offer Gilbert an extension with that money.

We are there. In fact, we're probably going to regret ownership doing so little this past offseason. Its rare to have this kind of health in your rotation.

Replace Trevor Williams with Logan Gilbert and we are buying at this year's deadline.


Also, its no secret that I'm not high on Wood. Or, more precisely, I'm not convinced that the "Faster Aaron Judge" is even remotely achievable. He is pretty much mirroring Joey Gallo. And before everyone says, but his age, that's not really a valid point. All you're telling me is he needs to spend most of next season in Double A, and probably a good portion of 2025 in Triple A. Which means that we're talking 2026 before Wood is ready to put forth a dominant season, if ever. Meanwhile, we're hoping that Gray/Gore/Cavalli become dominant.

Online Slateman

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Re: 2024 Rotation
« Reply #24: August 13, 2023, 07:11:24 PM »
Overall, I think we have to go into next season adding a piece to the rotation that is more than Trevor Williams. Given the ownership situation, I dont see a big free agency signing being an option. And, even if the Lerners are willing to spend, I suspect that Rizzo will want to invest in the organization and the owners will be eyeballing Juan Soto