PB69 presents "Fire Dave Martinez" (2018)

[varoadking]

And there are way more mangers with worse post season records

Who would those be?

[spidernat]

And there are way more mangers with worse post season records


You know what comfitms my argumenta are correct that fact l am veing called a cck scker moron idiot kid

But the facts and arguments I present stand unrouchee so you attack me persobally which is against forum rules i believe 

it's like a hybrid of metssuck and iluvryanzimmerman

[tzinc]

It is interesting to see how nasty and personal the attacks are on me.

My arguments are ignored instead I am attacked personally.

I think for some people they either cannot admit publicly or to themselves the real reason they wanted Dusty fired.  And they can't make an argument as to why he should have been fired or to counter my arguments as to why he shouldn't have been fired.  So all they can resort to are personal attacks.

[Natsinpwc]

It is interesting to see how nasty and personal the attacks are on me.

My arguments are ignored instead I am attacked personally.

I think for some people they either cannot admit publicly or to themselves the real reason they wanted Dusty fired.

[Ray D]

I think for some people they either cannot admit publicly or to themselves the real reason they wanted Dusty fired. 

And what would that reason be?

[aBaltoNat]

And what would that reason be?

Don't bait the race baiter troll.

[Elvir Ovcina]

It is interesting to see how nasty and personal the attacks are on me.

My arguments are ignored instead I am attacked personally.

I think for some people they either cannot admit publicly or to themselves the real reason they wanted Dusty fired.  And they can't make an argument as to why he should have been fired or to counter my arguments as to why he shouldn't have been fired.  So all they can resort to are personal attacks.

I think it's amusingly ironic to complain about "personal attacks" and then strongly imply (without any evidence whatsoever) that people on here are racists.  Seriously, dude, cut that sh it out.   Baker did a lot better than I thought he would, and he did a lot better than Martinez, and he was far and away better than Williams (who messed up a playoff series more than Baker could even dream of).   

But people are just fed up with losing in the first round of the playoffs, and he did that twice here, making it 5 consecutive playoffs Baker failed to get out of the first round.  That includes a 95-win team and two 97-win teams.  As Billy Beane once said about Moneyball, "My sh it doesn't work in the playoffs."  Sometimes that's sadly the case, even for people who are pretty good managers overall, like Baker.

[imref]

IIRC, Baker was extremely popular on this board until he decided to bat Werth 2nd and mismanaged the pitching staff in the playoffs.  Rarely were there complaints on Dusty's regular season in-game management, especially compared to the criticism received by Matt Williams.

Personally I would have been fine with keeping Dusty for another 2 years.  But I understand why he was fired.  I guess I'm ambivalent.

[tzinc]

first of all I never said anyone on here is a racist against saying I said that is a personal attack on me

second of all does anyone really not want to lose in the first round of the playoffs so much they don't make the playoffs after they fired Dusty and hired Davey you don't have to worry about losing in the first round of the playoffs anymore because guess what we didn't make the playoffs

third it is ridiculous to compare a GM to a coach --- coaching in the playoffs is no different then the regular season it's just a shorter period of time so in a marathon sport it is more luck based outcomes

never has anyone said that coaching in the playoffs is somehow different then regular season

one thing no one considers is how Dusty overachieved to get some of those teams into the playoffs (not Nats) you could argue they shouldn't even have made the playoffs so losing in them is no surprise

as other intelligent posters on here posted he has been to a WS he has won a clinching final game etc

the suggestion that Dusty somehow forgets how to coach when playoff time comes or that Dusty somehow can't figure out how to coach in the playoffs is ridiculous

the guy was the first manager in Nats history to win 2 divisions in a row
guess what there was a decent chance he could have been the first manager to win a WS but again you have to make the playoffs to even have a chance at a WS win

you can say what you want about Dusty and this board but there were a few posters on here who always criticized Dusty and out in the non-forum world no matter what and Maddon made a series of errors in that series ... trading in making the playoffs and winning a division every year with a chance at a WS because you didn't agree with a call out of 1000s of calls he made to get us to that point in the first place is absolutely ludicrous

like I said before 1) Dusty should not have been fired and was only fired to save money 2) Martinez should be fired and won't be only to save money

[Elvir Ovcina]

first of all I never said anyone on here is a racist against saying I said that is a personal attack on me

second of all does anyone really not want to lose in the first round of the playoffs so much they don't make the playoffs after they fired Dusty and hired Davey you don't have to worry about losing in the first round of the playoffs anymore because guess what we didn't make the playoffs

third it is ridiculous to compare a GM to a coach --- coaching in the playoffs is no different then the regular season it's just a shorter period of time so in a marathon sport it is more luck based outcomes

never has anyone said that coaching in the playoffs is somehow different then regular season

one thing no one considers is how Dusty overachieved to get some of those teams into the playoffs (not Nats) you could argue they shouldn't even have made the playoffs so losing in them is no surprise

as other intelligent posters on here posted he has been to a WS he has won a clinching final game etc

the suggestion that Dusty somehow forgets how to coach when playoff time comes or that Dusty somehow can't figure out how to coach in the playoffs is ridiculous

the guy was the first manager in Nats history to win 2 divisions in a row
guess what there was a could chance he could have been the first manager to win a WS but again you have to make the playoffs to even have a chance at a WS

Bold:     OK, then, what exactly were you implying?  If you're going to spin everything into a butthurt personal attack, here's some honest personal criticism: You can't write clearly, can't use the quote function, and your logic is incoherent.  As Joey Eischen said, well...anyone on here can tell you what Joey Eischen said. 

Italics:  That's one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever seen on here.  Managing playoff games is the same as managing regular season games?  Really?  Do you watch playoff games with your eyes actually open?

Underline:  Entirely irrelevant to the Nats job.  The team has the talent to make the playoffs every year.  If that's a skill Baker has, great: I also have skills that are irrelevant to my job, as does most everyone.  Sure, a couple of his teams overachieved in the regular season.  But most didn't, so it doesn't fix the flaw with your argument, which is:

Bold italics:  The dude has a .418 winning percentage in the playoffs.  He's had 8 shots at it, including with some very good teams, and has one pennant to show for it.  That's not pretty.

[mitlen]

Beerman  !!!

[varoadking]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but many of us are still waiting for the names of the managers with worse postseason records than Rusty...just a few will do...

[spidernat]

over a freaking manager, not a player, not a player, we talkin' about a manager, a manager

[dcpatti]

over a freaking manager, not a player, not a player, we STILL talkin' about a manager, a manager

ftfy

[HalfSmokes]

third it is ridiculous to compare a GM to a coach --- coaching in the playoffs is no different then the regular season it's just a shorter period of time so in a marathon sport it is more luck based outcomes

except managing in the playoffs is different. Great regular season managers need to worry about the next week as well as the current game. In the playoffs, at most a manager needs to care about the series

[spidernat]

And what would that reason be?

I'm also curious to know this.

[aspenbubba]

tu



like I said before 1) Dusty should not have been fired and was only fired to save money 2) Martinez should be fired and won't be only to save money

Dusty was making 2 mil a year. They did not let him walk to save money. DM is making less but he is signed for three years. People are attacking you because you are constantly beating the same drum. It is getting  freakin' tiring and pedantic. And why was I not the only one who felt you were playing the race card. Give it a rest or GTFO.

[bluestreak]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but many of us are still waiting for the names of the managers with worse postseason records than Rusty...just a few will do...

Are you just waiting for folks to do your research for you? No one has really compiled a list. You just have to think of a name and wikipedia it. Ron Gardenhire has a .222 postseason winning percentage, and he still has a job though. He's the only one I could come up with in limited thought off the top of my head.

[skippy1999]

Are you just waiting for folks to do your research for you? No one has really compiled a list. You just have to think of a name and wikipedia it. Ron Gardenhire has a .222 postseason winning percentage, and he still has a job though. He's the only one I could come up with in limited thought off the top of my head.

No one thinks Gardy should still have a job, like literally no one.  It is inexplicable how he remains employed.

[Baseball is Life]

Simple google search of 30 seconds. the article is dated 2010.

https://www.fangraphs.com/tht/10-things-i-didnt-know-about-managers-in-the-postseason/

Ten things I didn’t know about managers in the postseason
by Chris Jaffe
October 25, 2010

Well, it’s the postseason (obviously). That can mean only one thing: time to come out with postseason-related columns. Let’s have a postseason one about managers. This is, after all, a subject near to my heart given that I wrote a book on managers (Evaluating Baseball’s Managers from McFarland. Get a copy and find out why Diamond Appraised author Craig Wright said “Evaluating Baseball’s Managers is a wonderful work of analytical and historical research, and an incredibly worthy addition to any library dedicated to the understanding of professional baseball.”)

The point here isn’t to go over various bad moves or strategic blunders that field generals have made over the Octobers. Frankly, that’s a subject that’s been done to death.

Let’s take a different approach. Let’s look at overall successes, failures, highs and lows of managers in the postseason. For a jumping off point, you’ll get a list of career postseason win-loss records for every manager in baseball history. That info ain’t listed at Baseball Reference, or anywhere else that I can find, and it sure would be nice to see.

1. Complete W/L postseason records for all managers
The heart of the column is the list you’re about to see (assuming you haven’t scrolled down to sneak a peek already: the complete win-loss record for all managers in MLB history, even those who skippered in the 19th century postseason contests than no one cares about. Ties aren’t included, but who cares?

 
The managers are listed in alphabetical order by last name so it’s easier to look up an individual if you want to. Most columns are obvious, but the last one, Fibonacci Win Points, is a stat invented by Bill James designed to combine the quantity of a hearty win total with the quality of a superior winning percentage. It’s wins times winning percentage plus games over .500 (or minus games under, depending on the circumstance).

Without further ado, here is today’s main event:

Manager            W    L     Pct     FWP
Felipe Alou    1    3   0.250    -1.8
Walter Alston   23   21   0.523    14.0
Joe Altobelli    7    2   0.778    10.4
Sparky Anderson   34   21   0.618    34.0
Cap Anson    5    7   0.417     0.1
Del Baker    3    4   0.429     0.3
Dusty Baker   17   22   0.436     2.4
Frank Bancroft    3    0   1.000     6.0
Ed Barrow    4    2   0.667     4.7
Hank Bauer    4    0   1.000     8.0
Don Baylor    1    3   0.250    -1.8
Yogi Berra    9   10   0.474     3.3
Bruce Bochy   15   19   0.441     2.6
Lou Boudreau    4    2   0.667     4.7
Bob Brenley   11    9   0.550     8.1
Donie Bush    0    4   0.000    -4.0
Bill Carrigan    8    2   0.800    12.4
Frank Chance   11    9   0.550     8.1
Jack Chapman    3    3   0.500     1.5
Fred Clarke    7    8   0.467     2.3
Mickey Cochrane    7    6   0.538     4.8
Jimmy Collins    5    3   0.625     5.1
CharlieComiskey   16   21   0.432     1.9
Bobby Cox   67   69   0.493    31.0
Roger Craig    7    9   0.438     1.1
Joe Cronin    4    8   0.333    -2.7
Alvin Dark   10    9   0.526     6.3
Larry Dierker    2   12   0.143    -9.7
Charlie Dressen    5    8   0.385    -1.1
Leo Durocher    7    8   0.467     2.3
Eddie Dyer    4    3   0.571     3.3
Jim Fanning    5    5   0.500     2.5
Charlie Fox    1    3   0.250    -1.8
Terry Francona   28   17   0.622    28.4
Jim Fregosi    7    9   0.438     1.1
Jim Frey    7    7   0.500     3.5
Frankie Frisch    4    3   0.571     3.3
Ron Gardenhire    6   21   0.222   -13.7
Phil Garner   13   13   0.500     6.5
Cito Gaston   18   16   0.529    11.5
Joe Girardi   16    8   0.667    18.7
Kid Gleason    3    5   0.375    -0.9
Dallas Green    9    7   0.563     7.1
Charlie Grimm    5   12   0.294    -5.5
Ozzie Guillen   12    4   0.750    17.0
Fred Haney    7    7   0.500     3.5
Mike Hargrove   27   25   0.519    16.0
Bucky Harris   11   10   0.524     6.8
Lum Harris    0    3   0.000    -3.0
Gabby Hartnett    0    4   0.000    -4.0
Whitey Herzog   26   25   0.510    14.3
Gil Hodges    7    1   0.875    12.1
Rogers Hornsby    4    3   0.571     3.3
Ralph Houk    8    8   0.500     4.0
Art Howe    6    9   0.400    -0.6
Dick Howser    8   15   0.348    -4.2
Miller Huggins   18   15   0.545    12.8
Clint Hurdle    7    4   0.636     7.5
Fred Hutchinson    1    4   0.200    -2.8
Hughie Jennings    4   12   0.250    -7.0
Darrell Johnson    6    4   0.600     5.6
Davey Johnson   23   23   0.500    11.5
Fielder Jones    4    2   0.667     4.7
Johnny Keane    4    3   0.571     3.3
Tom Kelly   16    8   0.667    18.7
Kevin Kennedy    0    3   0.000    -3.0
Harvey Kuenn    6    6   0.500     3.0
Gene Lamont    2    4   0.333    -1.3
Hal Lanier    2    4   0.333    -1.3
Tony LaRusa   59   51   0.536    39.6
Tommy Lasorda   31   30   0.508    16.8
Bob Lemon   15    9   0.625    15.4
Jim Leyland   27   22   0.551    19.9
Grady Little    6    9   0.400    -0.6
Al Lopez    2    8   0.200    -5.6
Ken Macha    5    7   0.417     0.1
Connie Mack   24   19   0.558    18.4
Joe Maddon   10   11   0.476     3.8
Charlie Manuel   27   19   0.587    23.8
Jerry Maunel    0    3   0.000    -3.0
Billy Martin   15   19   0.441     2.6
Gene Mauch    5    7   0.417     0.1
Joe McCarthy   30   13   0.698    37.9
John McGraw   26   28   0.481    10.5
Bill McGunnigle    6    9   0.400    -0.6
Bill McKechnie    8   14   0.364    -3.0
Jack McKeon   11    6   0.647    12.1
John McNamara    7   10   0.412    -0.1
Sam Mele    3    4   0.429     0.3
Bob Melvin    3    4   0.429     0.3
Fred Mitchell    2    4   0.333    -1.3
Pat Moran    6    7   0.462     1.8
Joe Morgan    0    8   0.000    -8.0
Danny Murtaugh   12   16   0.429     1.1
Jim Mutrie   12   10   0.545     8.5
Johnny Oates    1    9   0.100    -7.9
Steve O'Neill    4    3   0.571     3.3
Paul Owens    4    5   0.444     0.8
Danny Ozark    2    9   0.182    -6.6
Lou Piniella   23   27   0.460     6.6
Willie Randolph    6    4   0.600     5.6
Jim Riggleman    0    3   0.000    -3.0
Bill Rigney    0    3   0.000    -3.0
Wilbrt Robinson    3    9   0.250    -5.3
Buck Rodgers    2    3   0.400    -0.2
Pants Rowland    4    2   0.667     4.7
Bill Russell    0    3   0.000    -3.0
Eddie Sawyer    0    4   0.000    -4.0
R. Schoendienst    7    7   0.500     3.5
Mike Scioscia   21   24   0.467     6.8
Frank Selee    5    0   1.000    10.0
Luke Sewell    2    4   0.333    -1.3
Burt Shotton    4    8   0.333    -2.7
Buck Showalter    3    6   0.333    -2.0
Mayo Smith    4    3   0.571     3.3
BillySouthworth   11   11   0.500     5.5
Tris Speaker    5    2   0.714     6.6
Jake Stahl    4    3   0.571     3.3
GeorgeStallings    4    0   1.000     8.0
Casey Stengel   37   26   0.587    32.7
Gabby Street    6    7   0.462     1.8
Dale Sveum    1    3   0.250    -1.8
Chuck Tanner    7    3   0.700     8.9
Patsy Tebeau    0    5   0.000    -5.0
Bill Terry    7    9   0.438     1.1
Joe Torre   84   58   0.592    75.7
Jim Tracy    2    6   0.250    -4.0
Bobby Valentine   13   13   0.500     6.5
Bill Virdon    6    9   0.400    -0.6
Ron Washington    7    4   0.636     7.5
Bill Watkins   10    5   0.667    11.7
Earl Weaver   27   19   0.587    23.8
Eric Wedge    6    5   0.545     4.3
Dick Williams   21   23   0.477     8.0
Jimy Williams    5    9   0.357    -2.2
Don Zimmer    1    4   0.200    -2.8

[blue911]

The regular season is about strategy while the playoffs are a tactical battle.

[spidernat]

Billy Martin is another one

[mitlen]

Here's baseball-reference's list of all categories.    Have at it:

https://www.baseball-reference.com/managers/index.shtml

[spidernat]

Here's baseball-reference's list of all categories.    Have at it:

https://www.baseball-reference.com/managers/index.shtml

Manny Acta heads that list

[aspenbubba]

No one thinks Gardy should still have a job, like literally no one.  It is inexplicable how he remains employed.

And YET he was one of the 7 that got hired for last years managerial positions.