POLL: UPDATED: Bryce's team in 2019 will be.....

[Mattionals]

I never understood comments from fans about locker room and player chemistry. Where does this come from?

Thin air? Complete guessing? Random anecdotes from reporters that then get twisted?

Who cares. I don't think Harper is returning, and I'd rather only see him play 6 times a year at most rather than 19. Go West young man.

[nfotiu]

His net-negative play and complete lack of leadership was a part of the team's struggle for 3 months...

They had injuries and were shorthanded but if Harper was even 20% better for the first 3 months we may have made the postseason.

I think only June, you could put on Harper.  He sucked in June and so did the team.  April, he was quite good, and the team sucked.  May is when he stopped taking walks, and his average took a bit hit, but the team was winning.   After the all-star game, he was looking like good Bryce again, and the team didn't really win at any better of a pace. 

[UMDNats]

I think only June, you could put on Harper.  He sucked in June and so did the team.  April, he was quite good, and the team sucked.  May is when he stopped taking walks, and his average took a bit hit, but the team was winning.   After the all-star game, he was looking like good Bryce again, and the team didn't really win at any better of a pace. 

He was awesome the first 2 weeks. April 15 - July 1 he had a .784 OPS in 284 PA's.

[Baseball is Life]

Thin air? Complete guessing? Random anecdotes from reporters that then get twisted?

Yep, for the most part is just pure speculating. At best, it's "people are saying" type of stuff.

[Baseball is Life]

Some of us have worked in the game and know people in baseball circles...

But of course, we are all outside the clubhouse and have no idea truly what it is all like. I'm not claiming to know everything. Just trying to look at this from all sides.

Even assuming fans hear it from people "in baseball circles" it's second-hand information and anecdotal at best. And people on the inside have agendas and biases too.

[nfotiu]

He was awesome the first 2 weeks. April 15 - July 1 he had a .784 OPS in 284 PA's.

That was mostly because of June though.

He OPSed .851 in May and the team was 20-7.  Not taking walks in May set the stage for a rotten June though.

[bluestreak]

I never understood comments from fans about locker room and player chemistry. Where does this come from?

Here is one article I found on cursory search that intimated that it might be an issue. If Chelsea Janes isn't connected to what's going on, I don't know who is.   I don't think folks are making it up out of whole cloth. And didn't he throw Wieters under the bus at some point?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/nationals/at-mlb-trade-deadline-should-the-nationals-buy-or-sell-they-arent-making-the-choice-easy/2018/07/30/d043f5a0-93ff-11e8-a679-b09212fb69c2_story.html?utm_term=.875691d4603e

Besides a lack of precedent, the Nationals seem highly unlikely to trade Harper after years of cultivating a relationship strong enough to foster a graceful exit from their franchise. Over the past few years, the team has tiptoed around Harper, rolling out red carpets, finalizing arbitration deals a year in advance so potentially hostile negotiations wouldn’t taint his final year before free agency.


When Trea Turner didn’t run out a groundball, he got benched. When Harper didn’t run out a groundball, one example in a larger pattern, he got spoken to behind closed doors and played the next day. When he called out his catchers in a comment suggesting the Nationals wouldn’t have lost Saturday had they upgraded at the position by trading for Realmuto, he suffered no consequences.

As he has struggled to boost his average about .220, his manager and general manager and everyone in between have been relentless in their defense of the 25-year-old. Internally, they see these disconnects, and players see the organization holding Harper to a different standard. This team is trying to make Harper comfortable, and if the Nationals are taking calls, they are almost certainly asking for a king’s ransom of their own in return — despite Harper’s struggles this season.

[Duke of Earl]

To be clear I am not saying I think he is lazy or a bad teammate or a choker.

Nor do I.

But I think he is very selfish.  Two reasons.  One. There are still a good number of free agents out there waiting to get offers, and common wisdom has it that GMs are waiting for the Harper situation to get resolved first. So he isn't just affecting himself by waiting, He's keeping other players from  getting on a team and getting ready to play. (And in addition, there are trades that will happen, but GMs are waiting for him to sign first.)  Two. GMs are hinting that a 10 year, $300M contract, would essentially leave little left for other players, in effect crippling the team for years.  Yet he seems to be holding out for that big contract.  So how much does he really care about his new team and teammates?

[UMDNats]

Yep, for the most part is just pure speculating. At best, it's "people are saying" type of stuff.

It's "people are saying" but also a pretty decent amount of evidence out there, too. Harper wouldn't be the first superstar to be pampered to the detriment of a team and he won't be the last. From Day One he got special treatment and every other player was aware of it. If you want to dispute that that has a negative impact, fine.

In my opinion, he's just a big ego guy (not unusual or unexpected) and the fact that the team has bent over backwards for him over everyone else doesn't help. Big egos can cause rifts. We've had what, five managers in 8 years? What's the one constant? There's a lot of little pieces of information that can easily come together and show, "hey, maybe the way the Nats have handled Bryce has created some issues."

Papelbon may be a total crazyperson but he lasted over 10 years in the majors without choking anyone before he met Bryce.

[nfotiu]

Nor do I.

But I think he is very selfish.  Two reasons.  One. There are still a good number of free agents out there waiting to get offers, and common wisdom has it that GMs are waiting for the Harper situation to get resolved first. So he isn't just affecting himself by waiting, He's keeping other players from  getting on a team and getting ready to play. (And in addition, there are trades that will happen, but GMs are waiting for him to sign first.)  Two. GMs are hinting that a 10 year, $300M contract, would essentially leave little left for other players, in effect crippling the team for years.  Yet he seems to be holding out for that big contract.  So how much does he really care about his new team and teammates?

I don't know that it is that simple.   I know a lot of times there is pressure from the players union for these high profile free agents to not sell themselves short, since they set the precedents.  The current state of labor/owner issues probably puts at least some of that dynamic at play for Machado and Harper.   Bryce may be selfish, but he definitely seems like a guy who wants his team to win championships.  He may lack the mental capacity to see that taking a big deal works against the team's ability to build a good team around him.  Or, he could be like a lot of other pro athletes who think owners are gazillinaires who should be spending unlimited money on all the best players.

[Baseball is Life]

Here is one article I found on cursory search that intimated that it might be an issue. If Chelsea Janes isn't connected to what's going on, I don't know who is.   I don't think folks are making it up out of whole cloth. And didn't he throw Wieters under the bus at some point?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/nationals/at-mlb-trade-deadline-should-the-nationals-buy-or-sell-they-arent-making-the-choice-easy/2018/07/30/d043f5a0-93ff-11e8-a679-b09212fb69c2_story.html?utm_term=.875691d4603e

The article doesn't intimate anything of the sort. It just says that the Nats treated Harper differently than other players. Doesn't say anything about how that affects chemistry. I guess that's my whole point. People read this chemistry thing into everything.

And Janes doesn't exactly break ground here by saying that star players get treated differently. Players understand that the best players get special treatment. It starts happening from the time they start playing teeball.

[Duke of Earl]

. We've had what, five managers in 8 years? What's the one constant?

If you're counting back five managers that goes back to Riggleman, who quit in 2011, replaced by Davey, who was manager when Harper arrived, So  four managers in  seven years is more relevant. But still too many.

[JCA-CrystalCity]

Papelbon may be a total crazyperson but he lasted over 10 years in the majors without choking anyone before he met Bryce.

I heard from someone who purported to know Matt Williams who more or less said Williams had warned Bryce that dogging on balls might p.o. a veteran at some point.  He sort of insinuated that Williams may have put Papelbon up to calling out Bryce.  He did not say Williams told Papelbon to get into a fight with Bryce, but more or less that Williams looked the other way when calling him out lead to a fight. Maybe Wms and JP both figured they were goners at that point so what the heck, or maybe the story is BS, but it is one of those in the background that leads folks to say that Harper probably rubbed some team mates the wrong way.

[nfotiu]

We're blaming Harper for all the managers getting fired now?

[JCA-CrystalCity]

We're blaming Harper for all the managers getting fired now?

lucky he's not being blamed for the bad concessions on opening day.  Where's PB69?

[nfotiu]

I heard from someone who purported to know Matt Williams who more or less said Williams had warned Bryce that dogging on balls might p.o. a veteran at some point.  He sort of insinuated that Williams may have put Papelbon up to calling out Bryce.  He did not say Williams told Papelbon to get into a fight with Bryce, but more or less that Williams looked the other way when calling him out lead to a fight. Maybe Wms and JP both figured they were goners at that point so what the heck, or maybe the story is BS, but it is one of those in the background that leads folks to say that Harper probably rubbed some team mates the wrong way.

I always thought Werth was pretty good at keeping Harper in check, and Harper had a respect for him.   Matt Williams has been around the game for a while, so it would surprise me that he would think a reliever was the right guy for that job.

[Baseball is Life]

I heard from someone who purported to know Matt Williams who more or less said Williams had warned Bryce that dogging on balls might p.o. a veteran at some point.  He sort of insinuated that Williams may have put Papelbon up to calling out Bryce.  He did not say Williams told Papelbon to get into a fight with Bryce, but more or less that Williams looked the other way when calling him out lead to a fight. Maybe Wms and JP both figured they were goners at that point so what the heck, or maybe the story is BS, but it is one of those in the background that leads folks to say that Harper probably rubbed some team mates the wrong way.

Nah, not buying it. The whole Papelon choking thing started after Pap the psycho threw at Machado and Harper said it was stupid in the media. A couple of days later Pap went after him. Pap was a psycho from the get go.

[skippy1999]

I'm referring to one poster who jumps on anything that could even be remotely construed as anti-Bryce.

yes, this thread is littered with me jumping on anyone saying something bad about Bryce.
What UMD said was stupid IMO, am I not allowed to express my opinion without you whining that I'm jumping all over posters? 

[UMDNats]

yes, this thread is littered with me jumping on anyone saying something bad about Bryce.
What UMD said was stupid IMO, am I not allowed to express my opinion without you whining that I'm jumping all over posters? 

You don't think there was clubhouse tension, really? All I said was I think this could be a different vibe in the clubhouse and could lend itself to a better result in terms of chemistry. I really don't think it's a stretch to say there was tension in the clubhouse and losing a huge personality could end up a net positive off the field. But you can disagree, that's fine. Bryce is my second favorite Nat behind Max to watch and I'll be sad when he is officially gone but I am curious how the team's chemistry changes.

We're blaming Harper for all the managers getting fired now?

Of course not - Harper can't be blamed for Matt Williams being a moron or Davey checking out, etc. But we've been a revolving door and full of drama since day one with him and people can get tired of it.

[skippy1999]

You don't think there was clubhouse tension, really? All I said was I think this could be a different vibe in the clubhouse and could lend itself to a better result in terms of chemistry. I really don't think it's a stretch to say there was tension in the clubhouse and losing a huge personality could end up a net positive off the field.

Of course not - Harper can't be blamed for Matt Williams being a moron or Davey checking out, etc. But we've been a revolving door and full of drama since day one with him and people can get tired of it.

saying his "crappy attitude" drug his teammates down just seems a tad more harsh than "there was some tension in the clubhouse".  I'm sure a lot of guys resented Bryce, I just can't see that manifesting itself to people not playing well in the field, you know?

[UMDNats]

saying his "crappy attitude" drug his teammates down just seems a tad more harsh than "there was some tension in the clubhouse".  I'm sure a lot of guys resented Bryce, I just can't see that manifesting itself to people not playing well in the field, you know?

I didn't mean that he made his teammates play worse - definitely not my intention because he's not making Ryan Zimmerman hit below his weight. Meant that his mediocre/poor play combined with piss-poor body language had a big hand in the team spinning its wheels for 2 months. There was a time we realllllly needed our best player to be our best player last year and he was not only playing well below his talent level (you could argue that he was selfishly looking for HRs, that's a different debate) but he was failing in any kind of leadership test, at least to the naked eye and with comments like "it's me and the Syracuse Chiefs" (and later, throwing Wieters under the bus, etc.)

[Baseball is Life]

Team chemistry is not a thing because the analytics geeks have not quantified it.

[varoadking]

Is he gone yet?

[Baseball is Life]

Is he gone yet?

Roark got traded in December, I think.

[nfotiu]

If he signs with the Phillies, I'm willing to jump full on board with agreeing he is a classless, choking, selfish, lazy piece of #### who cost us the season last year though and completely forget that he did anything good here.