Rick Eckstein / Lineup Protection

[The Chief]

Nationals hitting coach David Eckstein

Erm...  isn't our hitting coach's name Rick?

[PANatsFan]

Erm...  isn't our hitting coach's name Rick?

Not anymore.

[imref]

Not anymore.

David might be an improvement, but AP corrected the story.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5682288

[KnorrForYourMoney]

Oh no!!!

Harper will turn into a .240 hitter with 15 HR power by the time Eck is done with him.

What is with your random Rick Eckstein bashing?  I'm still waiting for you to name one hitter he "ruined" or made substantially worse.

Granted, I don't think he's the greatest ever or anything, but he doesn't seem to be some awful hitting coach.

[Kevrock]

What is with your random Rick Eckstein bashing?  I'm still waiting for you to name one hitter he "ruined" or made substantially worse.

Yes. Please be specific this time, imref.

What approaches at the plate from our hitters did you not agree with? What swing mechanic changes did you disagree with? What players had down years from previous years that you can tie to Eckstein in some way?

[Lintyfresh85]

Adam Dunn

[cmdterps44]

Adam Dunn

notsureifserious.jpg

[KnorrForYourMoney]

He is serious, and I think that's where you can probably make your best argument, to be honest.

That sounds counter-intuitive, but Linty mentioned it in another thread: Eckstein wanted Dunn to be more aggressive at the plate, and his OBP dropped.

That said, Dunn *did* post an OPS+ above his career average, and he *did* post his highest slugging percentage since playing his last full season at the Great American Ballpark, so it's hard to knock Eckstein for that.  If anything, he accomplished what he wanted to.

Now you can argue the virtues of going for high SLG% in place of OBP, but given the stability in his OPS, I don't really see much of a problem with it.

So that leaves, still, a grand total of zero players who became visibly worse because of Eckstein.

[imref]

What is with your random Rick Eckstein bashing?  I'm still waiting for you to name one hitter he "ruined" or made substantially worse.

Granted, I don't think he's the greatest ever or anything, but he doesn't seem to be some awful hitting coach.

I pointed out the across the board decline from 2009 to 2010 in BA, OBP, SLG, OPS.  I also watched Knight, who knows hitting far better than I do, point out flaw after flaw in how our team approached at-bats, especially against sinker-ball pitchers.

[imref]

So that leaves, still, a grand total of zero players who became visibly worse because of Eckstein.

How about Morgan?

And again we declined in all cumulative batting statistics (average, OPS, Slugging, OPS), that's with the substitutions of Pudge for Nieves/Bard, Dunn for Johnson, Kennedy/Guzman for Hernandez/Gonzales/Belliard, Desmond for Guzman, Bernie/Morse for Dukes, a full season of Nyjer, and Hammer for Dunn.

I don't see any reason why we shouldn't have improved our overall hitting in 2010 given the changes we made, yet the 2009 team hit better than the 2010 team.

[blue911]

I pointed out the across the board decline from 2009 to 2010 in BA, OBP, SLG, OPS.  I also watched Knight, who knows hitting far better than I do, point out flaw after flaw in how our team approached at-bats, especially against sinker-ball pitchers.

Why not blame the players? When was the last time you saw a major league player adjust their batting stance to a type of pitcher?

[JMUalumni]

I think trying to tie Dunn's struggles at hitting the ball or not taking walks to Eckstein's mentoring is a very very loose argument based almost solely on conjecture.  Dunn went through some pretty tough slumps in April, August, and September and was expanding his strikezone to break out of it.

I agree with Knorr when he says that Eckstein might not be the best, but the coaches are only going to have a minimal effect on players, especially veterans, either way.  I will say that Eckstein seems to be an extremely dedicated guy when it comes to helping his players and I happen to like his individualistic approach to helping each guy.   Sure there are probably better guys out there, but the onus is not always on the coaches for these guys individual struggles.

[KnorrForYourMoney]

How about Morgan?

And again we declined in all cumulative batting statistics (average, OPS, Slugging, OPS), that's with the substitutions of Pudge for Nieves/Bard, Dunn for Johnson, Kennedy/Guzman for Hernandez/Gonzales/Belliard, Desmond for Guzman, Bernie/Morse for Dukes, a full season of Nyjer, and Hammer for Dunn.

I don't see any reason why we shouldn't have improved our overall hitting in 2010 given the changes we made, yet the 2009 team hit better than the 2010 team.

I fail to see how those substitutions should amount to much of a cumulative upgrade.  I'll grant you Dunn for NJ, but then Hammer for Dunn kind of offsets that.

I guess you're one of those people who forgets that Pudge is like 80 years old and - yes - really is as bad as Josh Bard these days.

I'll give you a few reasons why the team hit better last year, and I don't really think any of them have to do with Rick Eckstein (although some of them could):

-The last hurrah of Willie Harris: he just happened to peak from 2007-09. Just one of those things. Fringe guys like him have their moments of usefulness like that.

-One month of Jesus Flores: it's easy to get what a house of fire he was in 2009.  The Nats never got any sort of production resembling that out of the catcher position through the end of 2010.

-One flukey month of Nyjer Moron in 2009: total mirage. We've now seen what he is when he plays full-time over the course of a season. You could make the argument that he's better than that, but what would it be based on? Even the friggin Pirates didn't give him a starting position. The Pirates, ffs!

-Elijah Dukes was better than Roger Bernadina: Elijah had the better final slash line. It is so. He was mediocre-to-bad in '09, and Bernadina was just bad. As with Nyjer, we don't really have a frame of reference, but based on his underwhelming track record in the minors (although decent), why should we have expected much from Bernadina?

There you have it.  You could argue those points, and might be able to mount something, but it's suspect.  Players were either not very good in the first place, or naturally got worse based on age or something.  If your argument is "Rick Eckstein ruined Roger Bernadina," then you're really grasping at straws.

[Kevrock]

The 2009 team (Eckstein's first year) also posted significantly better statistics in those save categories than the 2008 team.

[Lintyfresh85]

My main problem with Eckstein, is, as Knorr correctly pointed out, his counter productive stance on OBP.

Being aggressive is one thing, but your team has to have base runners to win. Dunn, at best is going to hit .270... I don't see why you'd want to take away the best way he gets on base, walks.

OPS was down, OBP was down, K's were way up, because Eckstein wanted him to walk less, and thus, get on base less.

I'm afraid the same approach will be given to Norris. A guy who walks a ton and hits for a ton of power.

This is my philosophy, of course, but if the pitcher is trying to give you a walk, take it, and hope the guy behind you does his job... after all, this is the major leagues, hitters should be expected to be able to drive in runners on base, it shouldn't all be shouldered by your cleanup hitter who is told to sacrifice one of his top skills for the 'good' of the team.

[KnorrForYourMoney]

The OPS was "down" from the previous year, sure, but that was a great year even by Dunn's standards.  His OPS was still in line with his career average - OPS+ was above it, in fact.  wOBA was a smidge lower than average.

I wouldn't say it had some dramatic effect on his production.  I'd just point out that changing Dunn's approach was really a whole lot of effort for nothing.  The fact that Eckstein thought that was a worthwhile venture is a bit troubling, but it's too early to conclude that this is some great problem.

[Kevrock]

Who's to say Eckstein hasn't already come to the same conclusion that some have on here about Dunn and the team's approach as a whole and will make adjustments next year?

Everyone was worshiping him in 2009. Now our production goes down a little from a standard he set and he's going to ruin Harper?

[Lintyfresh85]

The fact that Eckstein thought that was a worthwhile venture is a bit troubling, but it's too early to conclude that this is some great problem.

Another reason I worry about his approach to hitting is from the beginning of the year when Desmond said he wanted to emulate Guzman at the plate.

As a coach, don't you have to step in and tell Desmond, Guzman is the last player who you want to copy? I didn't hear a word from any of the writers that Eckstein disagreed with the idea. How can anyone want a player that does not walk and is dependant on BABIP to be high enough that they are a worthwhile player?

Desmond walked less than 5% this year, that's terrible... and I didn't see a thing from the coaching staff that they really seemed to care all that much about it.

[imref]

Why not blame the players? When was the last time you saw a major league player adjust their batting stance to a type of pitcher?

when it's systemic, i worry more about the coach.

[blue911]

when it's systemic, i worry more about the coach.

It's systematic of baseball as a sport. When was the last time you saw ANY major leaguer change their chance for one pitcher? Probably before Jose Canseco and Mark McGwire. It just isn't done anymore.

[The Chief]

I'm more of the "not a big difference one way or the other" school of thought, so I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here, but - I think it's funny that everyone conveniently ignores Ryan Zimmerman.

Full season OPS+

'06   '07   '08   '09   '10
114  107  102  133  142

If you credit the player then you undermine the "blame Eckstein" argument.

Of course you could also credit the presence of Dunn in the lineup, but everyone knows protection doesn't exist

[The Chief]

Throwing rocks at a hornet's nest aside, I think Eckstein is fine.  Arguing that replacing him would make a significant difference one way or the other is only slightly less banal than blaming the manager.

[Lintyfresh85]

I don't want him replaced... I just want him to stop screwing around with the approach of our best hitter.

[blue911]

I don't want him replaced... I just want him to stop screwing around with the approach of our best hitter.

Dunn approached Eckstein about changing his approach, not the other way around. There is no way in hell that 5'6" 130 lb Rick Eckstein could force Adam Dunn to do anything he didn't want to in the first place.

[JCA-CrystalCity]

I'm more of the "not a big difference one way or the other" school of thought, so I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here, but - I think it's funny that everyone conveniently ignores Ryan Zimmerman.

Full season OPS+

'06   '07   '08   '09   '10
114  107  102  133  142

If you credit the player then you undermine the "blame Eckstein" argument.

Of course you could also credit the presence of Dunn in the lineup, but everyone knows protection doesn't exist

Or 'roids