Author Topic: PBS's "Baseball - Tenth Inning" reminded me that Pudge ...  (Read 2322 times)

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Offline Sharp

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Re: PBS's "Baseball - Tenth Inning" reminded me that Pudge ...
« Reply #25 on: October 17, 2010, 05:11:59 pm »
If you're implying I posted what I did based on Wiki, I'm sorry to let you down.  That was directly from my doctor and PT people during my post-coma rehab (I was taking HGH at the time to recoup).  However, HGH on it's own does little; using it with steroids is a totally different story.  I wouldn't be surprised to see Bonds and McGwire come down with some strange ailments in a decade or so.  
The studies I was talking about were about HGH's use in healthy adult males.  Obviously it has legitimate medical uses in other cases.  Sorry to hear about the coma... that must have been an awful experience for you.

Offline Minty Fresh

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Re: PBS's "Baseball - Tenth Inning" reminded me that Pudge ...
« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2010, 08:54:55 am »
is a guy who gets tommy john surgery a cheater for extending his career? I really see little to no difference between steroids, hgh, cortisone shots, tommy john surgery, lasik, and every other medical treatment that extends careers or enhances performance

Other than one is a standard medical practice and the other is a seedy exchange of cash for an illegal substance, I guess there's really no difference.  :?

HGH/anabolic steroids would help a catcher probably more than any other position player.  It's cheating.

And "Pudge" is a cheater.


Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: PBS's "Baseball - Tenth Inning" reminded me that Pudge ...
« Reply #27 on: October 18, 2010, 09:16:00 am »
What if they have a prescription for HGH? Couldn't you say LASIK is a is a seedy exchange of cash that artificially lets a batter improve their vision in order to see the ball better and hit better? I would also say how is taking a ligiament for a leg or a corpse and sewing it into a pitcher's arm not artificially improving performance? 

Offline Minty Fresh

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Re: PBS's "Baseball - Tenth Inning" reminded me that Pudge ...
« Reply #28 on: October 18, 2010, 09:45:43 am »
What if they have a prescription for HGH? Couldn't you say LASIK is a is a seedy exchange of cash that artificially lets a batter improve their vision in order to see the ball better and hit better? I would also say how is taking a ligiament for a leg or a corpse and sewing it into a pitcher's arm not artificially improving performance?  

I understand where you're trying to go, but comparing anabolic steroids to Tommy John's surgery doesn't pass the common sense test.  One is an illegal transaction, the product of which is provided by someone NOT in the medical profession; the other is a medically approved procedure and takes months to recover from and the probability of full recovery to form is about 50/50.  I would have no problem with a doctor prescribing a medically approved procedure or product.  I'm guessing that players aren't receiving their surgeries from the same types of people who are dealing steroids and HGH.  You'd go Jose Canseco to get steroids, not Tommy John's surgery.

Ivan Rodriguez played on the same team at the same time as Jose Canseco when Canseco said he did most of his illegal steroid business.  Ivan Rodriguez weighed about 40 pounds more then than he does now.  He is commonly known as "Pudge" even though he bears no resemblance to that name whatsoever.  He plays the most physically demanding position on the baseball field and has been able to take the field more than any other person in the hstory of the game - by a lot.

- Over the course of history, catchers were known to need more recovery time than any other position.
- Steroids are known to help people recover from injuries/fatigued muscles much quicker than standard rest.
- Ivan Rodriguez played on the same team as Jose Canseco when Canseco was dealing in steroids.
- Ivan Rodriguez's best seasons were while he was on that team.

I don't recall ever hearing Ivan Rodriguez's name linked to steroids, but I have my suspicions and I think I'm right (mindfact, yes).  "Pudge" = Cheater and I think it's an insult to Carlton Fisk to even associate the nickname with a dirtbag like Rodriguez.

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: PBS's "Baseball - Tenth Inning" reminded me that Pudge ...
« Reply #29 on: October 18, 2010, 10:08:54 am »
Most of the accused HGH dealers are doctors, and HGH isn't an illegal substance- it's legal with a prescription. I just want to know how lasik or tommy john is less artifical without an appeal to authority. I think the distinction is illogical, so give me a logical way to differentiate lasik, tommy john surgery, and HGH.

Offline Minty Fresh

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Re: PBS's "Baseball - Tenth Inning" reminded me that Pudge ...
« Reply #30 on: October 18, 2010, 10:54:51 am »
Most of the accused HGH dealers are doctors, and HGH isn't an illegal substance- it's legal with a prescription. I just want to know how lasik or tommy john is less artifical without an appeal to authority. I think the distinction is illogical, so give me a logical way to differentiate lasik, tommy john surgery, and HGH.

I said that I have no problem with any of them as long as there is medical necessity.  I'm not sure what you want me to differentiate.  I even think steroids should be legalized as long as given under the direction of a medical professional.

We were talking about (and the title mentions) Ivan Rodriguez.  Rodriguez didn't have TJ or Lasik and we're not talking about approved HGH.  He played in the steroid era on the team that is most widely recognized as the dirtiest in the era due to the presence of the one guy who continually tells the truth. 

IMO, Rodriguez took steroids.  He's a cheater.  I wouldn't accuse him of cheating if he got TJ or Lasik or took medically approved doses of HGH to recover from a surgery.  He didn't.  He took illegal steroids - which is cheating.

Offline Lintyfresh85

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Re: PBS's "Baseball - Tenth Inning" reminded me that Pudge ...
« Reply #31 on: October 18, 2010, 10:58:48 am »
Juan Gonzalez was also on that team, wasn't he?

With Pudge... if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

Offline Ray D

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Re: PBS's "Baseball - Tenth Inning" reminded me that Pudge ...
« Reply #32 on: October 18, 2010, 11:50:14 am »
is a guy who gets tommy john surgery a cheater for extending his career? I really see little to no difference between steroids, hgh, cortisone shots, tommy john surgery, lasik, and every other medical treatment that extends careers or enhances performance
Glad you said that.  I've thought the same thing but never had the nerve to say it. I think Tommy John surgery is tantamount (in a small way) to creating a robot, and in that sense is worse than steroids.

Offline Minty Fresh

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Re: PBS's "Baseball - Tenth Inning" reminded me that Pudge ...
« Reply #33 on: October 18, 2010, 12:24:12 pm »
Juan Gonzalez was also on that team, wasn't he?

With Pudge... if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

Pudge:       




Or Pudge:   



Looks like a freaking duck to me.

Offline Minty Fresh

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Re: PBS's "Baseball - Tenth Inning" reminded me that Pudge ...
« Reply #34 on: October 18, 2010, 12:24:34 pm »
Glad you said that.  I've thought the same thing but never had the nerve to say it. I think Tommy John surgery is tantamount (in a small way) to creating a robot, and in that sense is worse than steroids.

Could Tommy John surgery explain the post above?

Offline The Chief

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Re: PBS's "Baseball - Tenth Inning" reminded me that Pudge ...
« Reply #35 on: October 18, 2010, 12:41:59 pm »
I look forward to a lively discussion on the merits of allowing pitchers with cybertronic arms in 50 years or so.

Offline aspenbubba

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Re: PBS's "Baseball - Tenth Inning" reminded me that Pudge ...
« Reply #36 on: October 18, 2010, 12:44:38 pm »
Glad you said that.  I've thought the same thing but never had the nerve to say it. I think Tommy John surgery is tantamount (in a small way) to creating a robot, and in that sense is worse than steroids.
TJ is not proactive but reactive. ACL  replacement surgery like Arenas and yours truly is to replace a ligament that the body cannot heal on its own.lt allows elite athletes to resume their careers or in my case participate in the sports that I enjoy. I disagree with your statement in its' entirety.

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: PBS's "Baseball - Tenth Inning" reminded me that Pudge ...
« Reply #37 on: October 18, 2010, 12:47:20 pm »
and a lot of athletes swear that HGH and steroids are reactive and speed recovery so that they can resume their careers.

Offline The Chief

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Re: PBS's "Baseball - Tenth Inning" reminded me that Pudge ...
« Reply #38 on: October 18, 2010, 12:48:26 pm »
TJ is not proactive but reactive. ACL  replacement surgery like Arenas and yours truly is to replace a ligament that the body cannot heal on its own.lt allows elite athletes to resume their careers or in my case participate in the sports that I enjoy. I disagree with your statement in its' entirety.

HGH allegedly allowed Pudge to extend his career as well.  Just playing devil's advocate here, but I don't think that really sets it apart.

Let's be honest - the line between cheating and not cheating in most sports (or competitive activities in general) are completely arbitrary.

Offline Sharp

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Re: PBS's "Baseball - Tenth Inning" reminded me that Pudge ...
« Reply #39 on: October 18, 2010, 12:52:10 pm »
    Glad you said that.  I've thought the same thing but never had the nerve to say it. I think Tommy John surgery is tantamount (in a small way) to creating a robot, and in that sense is worse than steroids.
    Huh?  TJ surgery involves literally taking a ligament from the subject's own leg and wrapping it around their elbow.  Similar procedures are used all the time for innocuous operations like (among other things) hair transplantation.  I guess in your book liver transplants are double cheating, because they come from other players?

    Everything you listed except steroids (HGH, cortisone shots, TJ surgery, Lasik) doesn't appear to confer any advantage on a healthy person.  Without steroids, HGH does virtually nothing to improve a healthy baseball player's performance (not even shorten muscle recovery, really). No player would take cortisone shots unless he was in a lot of pain, because it wouldn't help and would most likely hurt him.  The occasional "velocity increase" from TJ surgery is widely believed to be more due to the pitchers' abilities to rest their arms and build up their shoulders, cores, etc., rather than inherent to the surgery--if healthy, you could get roughly the same effect by just taking a year off in your early twenties.  Besides, no sane major league pitcher is going to risk being part of the 10% of TJ surgeries that fail if he doesn't need it in the first place, so the "advantage" it confers can't be very great.  Even Lasik, which occasionally results in slightly better than 20/20 vision, has a small failure rate, a significant recovery time, and despite the possible advantages is not only never (AFAICT) undertaken by major leaguers with normal vision, it's often not even done by those who require vision correction, especially pitchers, due to fear that something might go wrong and the required layoff time.

    So why are steroids different? Simple--unlike everything else you listed, even HGH, taking steroids can improve performance in healthy players.  That means that healthy players who aren't taking steroids (which are illegal, mind you) are put at a disadvantage vs. those who are.  Now, I'm in the smallish camp that thinks they weren't primarily responsible for the '90s offensive explosion and that the impact they had on individual players' performances was greatly exaggerated.  But even if their main impact was speeding recovery slightly and adding 3-5 feet to a bunch of hitters' fly balls (and maybe adding 1-2 mph to a few pitchers' fastballs while taking 3-4 years off their careers), that's more than enough to separate it (for me) from medical procedures designed to put unhealthy or injured players on an equal playing field with the healthy ones.

    So to finish, here's my basic formula for, "is it cheating":
    • is the act illegal (if it's not, it's obviously not cheating)
    • If half of a relatively homogeneous population of healthy, uninjured players perform the act and half don't, does the first half demonstrate significantly improved performance from the second half? (this would be true of, among other things, weightlifting, cardio, taking batting practice, and attending Spring Training, but since these acts are not illegal and they are usually surrounded by phrases like "hard work" and "motivation" nobody considers them cheating.  Also note that "performance" is purposefully kept ambiguous, since in the baseball world it can deal with anything from hits to strikeouts to [as in the case of the Black Sox or Pete Rose] padding one's bank account).
    • For healthy players, do the perceived risks of the act outweigh its rewards?  (This last one is worded kind of poorly and a little tricky to explain.  Think about it this way: it's technically illegal to turn a double play without stepping on second.  Players who choose to do this in the case of difficult plays generally are rewarded with more double plays.  But since it's usually done to avoid injury to the player throwing from 2B and is almost never called, its perceived risks don't really outweigh its benefits and it's not considered cheating.  This is also why I have a hard time calling players who took steroids from the mid-to-late '90s up until about 2001-2002 since the MLB did not even attempt to institute any sort of risk/reward structure into the game, and the health issues were [and still are to some extent] not very well-studied).

    If the answer to all three of these questions is "yes," then IMO the act is definitely cheating.  If not, then there may still be an argument for the act to be considered cheating, but it is probably not a black and white issue.  By these rules, anabolic steroids throughout this decade, betting on baseball, Gaylord Perry's spitballs, etc. are definitely in the "cheating category."  Pete Rose's corked bat (might not have actually been terribly effective, based on what few studies there are), "greenies" back in the day when everyone did them, HGH, etc. are in the "maybe" category.  TJ surgery, cortisone shots, etc. are really not.

    Offline The Chief

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    Re: PBS's "Baseball - Tenth Inning" reminded me that Pudge ...
    « Reply #40 on: October 18, 2010, 12:57:36 pm »
    I doubt there's an analog in baseball but this kind of discussion always reminds me of that crazy hi-tech swimsuit that Michael Phelps used in the Olympics.

    Offline Minty Fresh

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    Re: PBS's "Baseball - Tenth Inning" reminded me that Pudge ...
    « Reply #41 on: October 18, 2010, 12:57:57 pm »
    Let's be honest - the line between cheating and not cheating in most sports (or competitive activities in general) are completely arbitrary.

    I understand why people want you to apply logic and reason to the definition of cheating, but it speaks more to a person's moral compass and frequently belief systems are built on faith and not logic (unless you're atheistic).

    Offline HalfSmokes

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    Re: PBS's "Baseball - Tenth Inning" reminded me that Pudge ...
    « Reply #42 on: October 18, 2010, 12:59:29 pm »
    I would actually say working out and HGH are about equal on that scale. With a prescription, neither is illegal. Both help you with number 2. There is no real test for HGH, so the risk is pretty low and workout related injuries also crop out from time to time so there is some risk, throw in the loss of offseason time working out, and you do have some downside. If it always comes down to - it's illegal without questioning why, I just don't buy it. Drinking underage is illegal, people don't get drummed out of the minors for that. If its about it being a controlled substance, the obviously Lincecum is a huge cheater and should be booed

    Offline The Chief

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    Re: PBS's "Baseball - Tenth Inning" reminded me that Pudge ...
    « Reply #43 on: October 18, 2010, 01:00:38 pm »
    With a prescription, neither is illegal. Both help you with number 2.

    I know it's completely immature but this made me snicker.

    Offline HalfSmokes

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    Re: PBS's "Baseball - Tenth Inning" reminded me that Pudge ...
    « Reply #44 on: October 18, 2010, 01:01:11 pm »
    I understand why people want you to apply logic and reason to the definition of cheating, but it speaks more to a person's moral compass and frequently belief systems are built on faith and not logic (unless you're atheistic).

    Way off topic, but I think you should be able to logically justify a moral system even if it comes down to something as simple as the golden rule. Blindly following what someone else defines as good without explanation is the root of a lot of evil

    Offline NatsDad14

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    Re: PBS's "Baseball - Tenth Inning" reminded me that Pudge ...
    « Reply #45 on: October 18, 2010, 01:06:17 pm »
    I said that I have no problem with any of them as long as there is medical necessity.  I'm not sure what you want me to differentiate.  I even think steroids should be legalized as long as given under the direction of a medical professional.

    We were talking about (and the title mentions) Ivan Rodriguez.  Rodriguez didn't have TJ or Lasik and we're not talking about approved HGH.  He played in the steroid era on the team that is most widely recognized as the dirtiest in the era due to the presence of the one guy who continually tells the truth. 

    IMO, Rodriguez took steroids.  He's a cheater.  I wouldn't accuse him of cheating if he got TJ or Lasik or took medically approved doses of HGH to recover from a surgery.  He didn't.  He took illegal steroids - which is cheating.
    Let's say 10 years from now, James Andrews develops a TJ surgery that makes a pitcher better than he was before (2-3 MPH faster, etc.). Would you outlaw TJ surgeries if they are shown as a performance enhancer?

    Offline Minty Fresh

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    Re: PBS's "Baseball - Tenth Inning" reminded me that Pudge ...
    « Reply #46 on: October 18, 2010, 01:07:41 pm »
    Way off topic, but I think you should be able to logically justify a moral system even if it comes down to something as simple as the golden rule. Blindly following what someone else defines as good without explanation is the root of a lot of evil

    But you could say that even marginally intelligent people can and do have belief systems that are based upon a moral judgement, no?  I don't feel that there has to be a clearly defined logical answer for why steroids is cheating and Tommy John surgery is not.

    I don't question why people think steroid abuse is not cheating, I also don't expect them to question why I think steroid abuse is.  If you don't think it's cheating then that's your opinion - I have mine.

    I've seen players on steroids.  It's ugly, it turns them into something they are not - not just physically, but behaviorally (if that's a word).  Tommy John surgery doesn't do what steroids do.  It's just different.

    Offline Minty Fresh

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    Re: PBS's "Baseball - Tenth Inning" reminded me that Pudge ...
    « Reply #47 on: October 18, 2010, 01:08:50 pm »
    Let's say 10 years from now, James Andrews develops a TJ surgery that makes a pitcher better than he was before (2-3 MPH faster, etc.). Would you outlaw TJ surgeries if they are shown as a performance enhancer?

    Yes.  It's making you something you are not and never were at one point.  Whereas the current TJ surgery does no such thing.

    Offline Sharp

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    Re: PBS's "Baseball - Tenth Inning" reminded me that Pudge ...
    « Reply #48 on: October 18, 2010, 01:23:45 pm »
    Let's say 10 years from now, James Andrews develops a TJ surgery that makes a pitcher better than he was before (2-3 MPH faster, etc.). Would you outlaw TJ surgeries if they are shown as a performance enhancer?
    I expect players to be the best damn players they can be, and if every pitcher was suddenly able to add an extra 2-3 mph to his fastball through year-long reconstructive surgery, I can damn near guarantee you that everyone would jump at the chance.  Now, I don't see that happening, for a variety of reasons, but this is a hypothetical situation.  TJ surgery is different from steroids, for a variety of reasons beyond those already covered.  It can't really be kept a secret: it's invasive surgery from which it takes around a year to recover.  There are going to be medical records, hefty bills, and a ton of testimonials even if you for some bizarre reason try to hide it.  So if MLB really wanted to they could outlaw the "new" TJ surgery pretty easily.  At the same time, since we currently have a variety of TJ surgery that doesn't (in itself) add 2-3 mph to pitchers' fastballs, I could see them keeping a loophole open to allow injured pitchers to opt for the old surgery.  The new variety of cheating would then become trying to pass off the "new" surgery as the old kind, making sure to have it done long before you got close to the major leagues.  Ambitious doctors and more ambitious parents would cooperate to make sure everything looked proper.

    Around 10-15 years down the line, there would be a huge scandal.  Bud Selig (who would of course still be commissioner, since in this future I have decided people on their deathbeds have their brains transferred to a cold robotic exterior shell and live until they're 150--which unfortunately doesn't mean these people don't suffer from dementia)--would promise to organize a committee to "explore" the possible fake TJ surgeries, but would probably attribute the higher velocities to global warming.  The media, smelling blood, would swarm and converge, speculating endlessly about the causes of the sudden pitching dominance as Stephen Strasburg (now 47) broke Matt Kilroy's single-season strikeout record of 513.  A tell-all book would shortly be published listing (among other things) 89 past and present pitchers now known to have received the "performance-enhancing operation" (PEO).  Selig, finally giving in to the pressure, would pass legislation requiring a thorough medical background check for all present and future MLBers.  Two years later, Strasburg would retire, saying he could not withstand the rigors of the game anymore, but it was too late: the damage had already been done.  For the first time in major league history, baseball attendance would fall behind that of hockey.

    Offline PANatsFan

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    Re: PBS's "Baseball - Tenth Inning" reminded me that Pudge ...
    « Reply #49 on: October 18, 2010, 01:25:02 pm »
    Yes.  It's making you something you are not and never were at one point.  Whereas the current TJ surgery does no such thing.

    You might as well ask if  Jim Abbott had a robotic arm could he pitch from that side. It's silliness.