Author Topic: PBS's "Baseball - Tenth Inning" reminded me that Pudge ...  (Read 2330 times)

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Offline RL04

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PBS's "Baseball - Tenth Inning" reminded me that Pudge ...
« on: October 15, 2010, 01:50:35 pm »
... identified as a PED user in the Mitchell Report.

I think it is a given that McGwire and Sosa are never getting into the Hall of Fame.
And Clemens and Bonds might have to wait longer than otherwise would.
Or might not make it at all.

So why is Ivan always described in Nats articles as "future hall of famer."
Won't his background follow him too?

Offline DPMOmaha

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Re: PBS's "Baseball - Tenth Inning" reminded me that Pudge ...
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2010, 01:54:16 pm »
I think a lot of it has to do with Pudge not having to testify before Congress.

Offline blue911

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Re: PBS's "Baseball - Tenth Inning" reminded me that Pudge ...
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2010, 02:10:10 pm »
Mitchell Report- No Pudge


http://files.mlb.com/mitchrpt.pdf

Offline Sharp

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Re: PBS's "Baseball - Tenth Inning" reminded me that Pudge ...
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2010, 02:59:40 pm »
Yup.  There's no hard evidence against him.  There is a ton of anecdotal evidence, though, from his time with the steroid-era Rangers to his period of massive power to his losing a ton of muscle after steroids testing was announced to his answering someone asking if he was named in any of the steroid-related reports with "God only knows."  Personally I suspect he probably did use steroids.  But I also don't think steroids have anywhere near the impact they're given credit for, and in any case I think Pudge's career accomplishments are too impressive not to put him in solely for that reason.

Offline Lintyfresh85

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Re: PBS's "Baseball - Tenth Inning" reminded me that Pudge ...
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2010, 03:16:27 pm »
With Pudge, I think steroids were more for endurance than performance.

In that regard, I imagine he was using something like HGH rather than regular steroids as a way to stay healthy.

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: PBS's "Baseball - Tenth Inning" reminded me that Pudge ...
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2010, 03:33:34 pm »
I think Pudge's career accomplishments are too impressive not to put him in solely for that reason.

I think bonds and clemmons accomplished more, but they'll be out for solely that reason

Offline PANatsFan

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Re: PBS's "Baseball - Tenth Inning" reminded me that Pudge ...
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2010, 03:35:47 pm »
I think bonds and clemmons accomplished more, but they'll be out for solely that reason

I think the way that they retired/will retire and handled themselves will have far more to do with it.

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: PBS's "Baseball - Tenth Inning" reminded me that Pudge ...
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2010, 03:38:54 pm »
I think the way that they retired/will retire and handled themselves will have far more to do with it.

time will tell, I think anyone in the Mitchell report is out of the HOF as well as anyone who tested positive. It's hard to justify MacGuire and Sosa out (for roids) if Petit and ARod (roiders) get in.

Offline PANatsFan

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Re: PBS's "Baseball - Tenth Inning" reminded me that Pudge ...
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2010, 03:39:46 pm »
time will tell, I think anyone in the Mitchell report is out of the HOF as well as anyone who tested positive. It's hard to justify MacGuire and Sosa out (for roids) if Petit and ARod (roiders) get in.

They have another ring afterwards, and both are far superior players to either McGuire or Sosa.

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: PBS's "Baseball - Tenth Inning" reminded me that Pudge ...
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2010, 03:42:48 pm »
still, it amounts to voters making judgements about how much roids helped certain players vs. other players, whether players who lied about usage are telling the truth when they admit to using 'just a little' If you elimate the all numbers from Petit or ARod pre-testing are they hall of famers? I would also say Clemmons out and Petite in would be absurd.

Offline Sharp

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Re: PBS's "Baseball - Tenth Inning" reminded me that Pudge ...
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2010, 04:05:10 pm »
I think bonds and clemmons accomplished more, but they'll be out for solely that reason
No way Bonds, at least, doesn't get in.  He'll just have to wait awhile.  Same goes for Clemens IMO.

(Incidentally, I wish people focused less on W-L record because Pettitte really wouldn't be in HoF consideration if it weren't for that).

Offline RL04

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Re: PBS's "Baseball - Tenth Inning" reminded me that Pudge ...
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2010, 05:29:07 pm »
Mitchell Report- No Pudge

http://files.mlb.com/mitchrpt.pdf


Sorry, clarification.
Rodriguez was not in the published report.
His name was in the "leaked" Mitchell Report list and mentioned in Canseco's book.

Offline Minty Fresh

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Re: PBS's "Baseball - Tenth Inning" reminded me that Pudge ...
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2010, 09:46:50 pm »
With Pudge, I think steroids were more for endurance than performance.

In that regard, I imagine he was using something like HGH rather than regular steroids as a way to stay healthy.

Still an advantage.  Still a cheater.  Still an jerk.

Offline Lintyfresh85

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Re: PBS's "Baseball - Tenth Inning" reminded me that Pudge ...
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2010, 09:47:35 pm »
No disagreement from me.

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: PBS's "Baseball - Tenth Inning" reminded me that Pudge ...
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2010, 11:01:32 am »
Still an advantage.  Still a cheater.  Still an jerk.

is a guy who gets tommy john surgery a cheater for extending his career? I really see little to no difference between steroids, hgh, cortisone shots, tommy john surgery, lasik, and every other medical treatment that extends careers or enhances performance

Online JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: PBS's "Baseball - Tenth Inning" reminded me that Pudge ...
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2010, 11:59:09 am »
is a guy who gets tommy john surgery a cheater for extending his career? I really see little to no difference between steroids, hgh, cortisone shots, tommy john surgery, lasik, and every other medical treatment that extends careers or enhances performance
One difference is that steroids are controlled substances. I guess cortisone is as well, but no one is talking about using it in unapproved ways.  I think Bode Miller once suggested that PEDs be allowed, but just be above board, fully disclosed, and monitored for safety.  Maybe the classic "I was using it to help my recovery from injury" should be allowed if disclosed, but how do you draw the line between that and "I'm using it so I can work out longer and recover quicker?"

Offline PowerBoater69

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Re: PBS's "Baseball - Tenth Inning" reminded me that Pudge ...
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2010, 03:05:03 pm »

Sorry, clarification.
Rodriguez was not in the published report.
His name was in the "leaked" Mitchell Report list and mentioned in Canseco's book.


Didn't the leaked list turn out to be a fake?  On the other hand, if Canseco says he juiced, he juiced.

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: PBS's "Baseball - Tenth Inning" reminded me that Pudge ...
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2010, 09:45:48 pm »
One difference is that steroids are controlled substances. I guess cortisone is as well, but no one is talking about using it in unapproved ways.  I think Bode Miller once suggested that PEDs be allowed, but just be above board, fully disclosed, and monitored for safety.  Maybe the classic "I was using it to help my recovery from injury" should be allowed if disclosed, but how do you draw the line between that and "I'm using it so I can work out longer and recover quicker?"

HGH, anabolic steroids, and contact lenses all require a prescription, so what? Lasik is legal, and improves performance rather than aiding recovery. I just fail to see the difference other than an artificial - these are bad line that has been drawn.

Offline The Chief

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Re: PBS's "Baseball - Tenth Inning" reminded me that Pudge ...
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2010, 09:55:20 pm »
I definitely get what HS is saying...  I guess if anything I would say steroids get singled out because they're terrible for the body.  I have no idea if HGH has any similar deleterious effects.

Offline PANatsFan

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Re: PBS's "Baseball - Tenth Inning" reminded me that Pudge ...
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2010, 09:56:49 pm »
I definitely get what HS is saying...  I guess if anything I would say steroids get singled out because they're terrible for the body.  I have no idea if HGH has any similar deleterious effects.

I don't know of any medical use for ANABOLIC steroids. They aren't injecting prednezone. HGH has medical usage and does occur in the body, so I see a difference.

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: PBS's "Baseball - Tenth Inning" reminded me that Pudge ...
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2010, 10:01:23 pm »
I don't know of any medical use for ANABOLIC steroids. They aren't injecting prednezone. HGH has medical usage and does occur in the body, so I see a difference.

they do have some medical uses, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabolic_steroid#Medical_uses  I don't see them as much worse than a cortisone shot which (admittedly more in football) just allows an athlete to damage an injured body part further, but without pain

Offline PANatsFan

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Re: PBS's "Baseball - Tenth Inning" reminded me that Pudge ...
« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2010, 10:02:57 pm »
they do have some medical uses, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabolic_steroid#Medical_uses  I don't see them as much worse than a cortisone shot which (admittedly more in football) just allows an athlete to damage an injured body part further, but without pain


Ok, but its different than a steroid cream for eczema or like I said, an anti-inflammatory. Although prednazone did give me roid rage :evil: Not very fun, actually.

Offline MarquisDeSade

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Re: PBS's "Baseball - Tenth Inning" reminded me that Pudge ...
« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2010, 10:21:35 pm »
I have no idea if HGH has any similar deleterious effects.

The purpose of HGH is to increase cell production for a faster recovery.  The problem is that HGH not only increases "good" cell production but also "bad" cell production (i.e. cancer cells).

Offline Sharp

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Re: PBS's "Baseball - Tenth Inning" reminded me that Pudge ...
« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2010, 03:52:54 pm »
The purpose of HGH is to increase cell production for a faster recovery.  The problem is that HGH not only increases "good" cell production but also "bad" cell production (i.e. cancer cells).
There is a whole lot of misinformation about HGH.  The Wikipedia article links to several research articles, which I took the time to track down only to find that they were misciting and misrepresenting their sources (this is why you can't just blindly accept what Wikipedia says even if it does have a reference).  It turns out that there is really no evidence at all that HGH speeds up recovery, or does much of anything at all to improve your performance, unless (a) you are HGH-deficient like an extraordinarily small subsection of the population, (b) you run track (it makes you a tiny bit faster, enough to matter in elite-level athletics but not enough otherwise), or (c) you're taking it in combination with steroids.  "Then why do players do it?" you might ask.  Well, players do a lot of things that don't make sense if they think it gives them an edge.  Pop greenies, cork their bats, go through a particular ritual before each at-bat, not change their clothes or shave their beards... anything for a perceived advantage, however slight.  The fact that HGH is a medical substance with "growth" in its name makes it even more alluring.

Offline MarquisDeSade

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Re: PBS's "Baseball - Tenth Inning" reminded me that Pudge ...
« Reply #24 on: October 17, 2010, 05:03:22 pm »
The Wikipedia article links to several research articles, which I took the time to track down only to find that they were misciting and misrepresenting their sources (this is why you can't just blindly accept what Wikipedia says even if it does have a reference).

If you're implying I posted what I did based on Wiki, I'm sorry to let you down.  That was directly from my doctor and PT people during my post-coma rehab (I was taking HGH at the time to recoup).  However, HGH on it's own does little; using it with steroids is a totally different story.  I wouldn't be surprised to see Bonds and McGwire come down with some strange ailments in a decade or so.