Knuckleballs

[JCA-CrystalCity]

Haeger and Charlie Zink have been trying to break through for about 4 years. 

[Ray D]

Sliders are easier to control than curveballs.

That's not my understanding, and pitchers I talk to say they have a very hard time learning it and most give up on it while no pitcher gets as far as even high school without a curve.  The advantage to a slider, if the pitcher can throw it effectively,  is that it is a much faster pitch and much harder for the hitter to pick up.

As to wear and tear, I don't know.

[CatsEye]

Cycles and fads: Elroy Face was one of the few pitchers to throw a fork-ball, and went 19 -1 as a relief pitcher one year. (As best I remember, and I was about 12...). The close cousin of that pitch, the split-fingered fastball, became "everybody's" pitch after about '86, when a nothing-much pitcher for Houston tied the super-Mets in knots in the NLCS.
The knuckle-ball will be back.

                   I am interested in what you said about a "fork-ball"; I do not believe I have ever seen a fork-ball pitch. How is it different that a split-fingered fastball pitch(which I have seem)?
            I hope you are right, in that the knuckle-ball will be back - to me it is amazing to watch someone pitch that style and have control of it. To me, a pitcher that can throw a knuckle-ball effectively, is on a completely different level of pitching then most pitchers in the Major Leagues.
                                                                                          

[tomterp]

I was throwing it over the weekend, and at least 2/3 of them were good, the other 1/3 suffering inadvertent rotation.  One big problem, due to my shoulder injury I can't get any velocity at all, and so the ball just sits there with little or no movement, even when you can count the laces.  You have to have decent velocity to get movement. 

[PANatsFan]

                    I am interested in what you said about a "fork-ball"; I do not believe I have ever seen a fork-ball pitch. How is it different that a split-fingered fastball pitch(which I have seem)?
            I hope you are right, in that the knuckle-ball will be back - to me it is amazing to watch someone pitch that style and have control of it. To me, a pitcher that can throw a knuckle-ball effectively, is on a completely different level of pitching then most pitchers in the Major Leagues.
                                                                                         

Nats had a forkballer named Booker for a while. It was supposed to be a killer out pitch to lefties, but he flamed out.

[CatsEye]

I was throwing it over the weekend, and at least 2/3 of them were good, the other 1/3 suffering inadvertent rotation.  One big problem, due to my shoulder injury I can't get any velocity at all, and so the ball just sits there with little or no movement, even when you can count the laces.  You have to have decent velocity to get movement. 

              What would you consider to be a decent velocity range to get the desired effect?

[CatsEye]

                And the split fingered pitch would be the difference to the fork pitch,by the seams that the fingers gripped/held-right?

[PANatsFan]

Looks like it. I'll check this book later:

http://www.amazon.com/Pitching-Revised-Excellence-Illustrated-Winners/dp/1568000014

Forkball isn't as much of a "power" pitch, I don't think. I don't throw any of them

[soxfan59]

                   I am interested in what you said about a "fork-ball"; I do not believe I have ever seen a fork-ball pitch. How is it different that a split-fingered fastball pitch(which I have seem)?
            I hope you are right, in that the knuckle-ball will be back - to me it is amazing to watch someone pitch that style and have control of it. To me, a pitcher that can throw a knuckle-ball effectively, is on a completely different level of pitching then most pitchers in the Major Leagues.
                                                                                          

The forkball is thrown with the fingers spread over the ball and the ball buried/stuffed into the space between the fingers so there is no gap.  Much like PANatsfan's diagram.  The split-fingered pitch is very similar, but the ball is not jammed into the fingers as much -- there is a slight gap between the ball and the base of the fingers.  I have the DVD set from the 2005 World Series, and in the broadcast for game 1, the broadcasters do a detailed explanation of this with video and still photography comparing the deliveries of Jose Contreras, who threw a forkball, and Roger Clemens, who threw the split fingered pitch.  

I think the reason why the knuckleball is a lost art is that kids don't have the patience to develop it, and neither do coaches at the developmental levels of baseball.  A poorly thrown knuckleball will flatten out and be nothing more than a fat change up.  A high school pitcher, for example, trying to develop a knuckler could be bashed around quite a bit if he wasn't completely on his game. Plus, because the ball is gripped so differently, if your pitching repertoire includes standard pitches like the fastball, curve, and change, unless you have practiced hard to make your knuckleball delivery look exactly the same as your other motions, the use of the knuckler will be telegraphed to the batter.  

Here is a video that tries to explain:

I actually think the best place in a modern day rotation for a knuckle ball pitcher is short relief, but not the closer.  Charlie Haeger used to be in the White Sox system, and did a variety of short stints with the big club.  I saw him come out of the pen to face an innings worth of hitters once, and completely baffle them.  Of course, he followed a hard throwing fastball pitcher, and was replaced by the same.  The change of pace could be quite effective.

[tomterp]

              What would you consider to be a decent velocity range to get the desired effect?

It increases with speed, but I'd guess 50+ for decent movement, and I bet the pros throw 60+.

I'm up to about 25-30.   

[Nathan]

We need a "How to throw pitches" thread.  I want to learn, but I don't know any of the grips other than a curve

[PANatsFan]

We need a "How to throw pitches" thread.  I want to learn, but I don't know any of the grips other than a curve

That book is fantastic, Nathan. I got it for 50 cents at used book sale.

[Nathan]

That book is fantastic, Nathan. I got it for 50 cents at used book sale.

I've got this little piece of molding in my house where it transfers from the wood floor in the living room to the tile in the kitchen.  I use it as my pitching rubber when I'm pretending to be a pitcher

[The Chief]

I still say we need to get a WNFF game together sometime.

[Nathan]

I still say we need to get a WNFF game together sometime.

PA can be Bruney   I'll have to be the white Dimitri Young

[Lintyfresh85]

I still say we need to get a WNFF game together sometime.

Absolutely would be down for that.

[The Chief]

PA can be Bruney   I'll have to be the white Dimitri Young

So that means you'll drink all the liquor and smoke all the cigars?

[PANatsFan]

Actually, I can manage or be water boy or something. I played LF until they couldn't hide me there anymore

Or I can ride pine like Bruney should.

[Ray D]

So that means you'll drink all the liquor and smoke all the cigars?

Why is there so much hate in this forum?

[Nathan]

So that means you'll drink all the liquor and smoke all the cigars?

That would probably be preferable to any sort of contribution I could make on the field

[The Chief]

Why is there so much hate in this forum?

???

I hope that wasn't a serious question, but just in case it was, I was merely making a joking reference to Nat of the Living Dead's prior mentions of often spotting Dmitri at the liquor stores during spring training two years ago.

[Nathan]

???

I hope that wasn't a serious question, but just in case it was, I was merely making a joking reference to Nat of the Living Dead's prior mentions of often spotting Dmitri at the liquor stores during spring training two years ago.

And I was making a reference to the fact that I'm a big ol' fat ass.

[Ray D]

???

I hope that wasn't a serious question, but just in case it was, I was merely making a joking reference to Nat of the Living Dead's prior mentions of often spotting Dmitri at the liquor stores during spring training two years ago.

Sorry, I get oversensitive sometimes to what I consider attacks on Dmitri, who certainly isn't a perfect soul but is a genuine good guy and did contribute here, at least for awhile, while he was able to.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not entirely against hate.  Take for example, Redskins Mr. Hainsworth.  I hate him. Absolutely hate him.  But Dmitri, different type altogether.

[The Chief]

I bear him no ill will.

[PANatsFan]

Dmitri is a troubled man who hopefully can find a calling as a hitting coach. If he succeeds in the independent leagues, the Nats should call him.