Knuckleballs

[Minty Fresh]

Maybe the speed of the pitch?  A curve is slower and closer speed wise to the knuckler.

But curveballs and behave very differently.

Sliders are easier to control than curveballs.

True, but the trick is how much differentiation you put between slider and fastball.

[shoeshineboy]

Damn.  I was having trouble posting, then it finally took and I thought it posted properly.  Looks like I lost one of the best paragraphs of my posting career.   

I thought that maybe that was your way of saying you had no thoughts on the subject. But clearly you did.

[JCA-CrystalCity]

Charlie Zink signed with the Twins at the end of April but is in the minors.  Wasn't there a knuckleballer for seattle we beat 2 years ago?

[blue911]

Getting a fastball to move like Livan does is hard -- it was harder for me control movement on a fastball than to learn a knuckleball. Also, HS coaches tend to teach harder thrown curveballs in attempts to get sharper break... not the loopy curve that Livan throws.

There are plenty of finesse pitchers at lower levels, though. The majority of them just don't get drafted.

The two curve balls. The loopy one would be a great pitch for a LOOGY. The hard biting 12-6 is damn near impossible to hit.

[EdStroud]

Charlie Zink signed with the Twins at the end of April but is in the minors.  Wasn't there a knuckleballer for seattle we beat 2 years ago?

R A Dickey?

[hammondsnats]

agenda alert

[HerndonNat]

  Look at those dreads

It's weird that she's wearing sunglasses while pitching.

[blue911]

It's weird that she's wearing sunglasses while pitching.

Probably Corey Hart's sister

[imref]

nothing pisses my son off more than when i throw a knuckler at him when we're doing batting practice.  I can't throw it very well, but it does kind float toward him.

[blue911]

Jeff Innis was working on one. I don't know if he ever threw it in a game.




I imagine that would be a nag to hit.


Mark Lemke threw it in Indy ball after retiring.

[tomterp]

To answer Catseye's question directly, I'm not sure that it's a lost art of sorts or any more rare than it was at any point in history.  How many true knuckleballers were ever playing simultaneously anyway?  

I disagree.  Right now, there are two in the entire major leagues.  The Senators once had 4 in their rotation alone, and there were plenty around the majors at the time. 

I think that over time, there has been a trend towards much more formal player development and coaching, which results in similar techniques being tought in similar ways to young pitchers.  I bet if we could watch some games from the 30's or 40's, we'd see a much larger diversity of styles, motions, windups, and pitches.  Lincicum's dad is almost considered a radical now for how he insisted his son not have his delivery altered, whereas in the first half of the last century, he would have been the norm.

[CatsEye]

   Just to throw into the mix - at last night's game, I was talking to a friend of mine who is a Minor League expert and follower. Interesting enough, he said that there had only been one pitcher in the Nats Farm System of late, who could successfully throw a knuckleball, but he was now gone. As for the Nats Major League, the only pitcher who has stated he can throw a knuckleball, is our closer, Matt Capps.  Per Dibble, he didn't believe him, so he went to the bullpen to check it out, sure enough Capps can throw a knuckleball, per Dibble. I would really like to see that -Capps throw a knuckleball, in a game.
                                                                                                           

[Kevrock]

I would really like to see that -Capps throw a knuckleball, in a game.

I would not like to see that.

[CatsEye]

I would not like to see that.

              Okay I'll ask the obvious -why?
                                             

[Kevrock]

              Okay I'll ask the obvious -why?
                                             

He's our closer. There's still a place for knuckleballs in MLB, it's just not the bottom of the ninth.

[imref]

He's our closer. There's still a place for knuckleballs in MLB, it's just not the bottom of the ninth.

remember when Wakefield closed for a bit?

[CatsEye]

What I want to know is why very few kids/players try to emulate the known to be successful style of Livan Hernandez. It doesn't discriminate against fat people and people who can't throw hard.

                     IMO, the style of Livan Hernandez is based on his experience, strategy and judging the speed of his change-up to throw against certain batters - that only comes with knowledge, wisdom, and experience - alot of experience in the Major Leagues.
                                                       

[blue911]

remember when Wakefield closed for a bit?

Hell, I remember when Hoyt Wilhelm closed 


Last thing I'd want is a knuckleballer in the closers roll

[CatsEye]

Hell, I remember when Hoyt Wilhelm closed  
Last thing I'd want is a knuckleballer in the closers roll

But it has been stated on several broadcasts and by sportcasters, that most batters do not know how to hit a knuckleball.  So the knuckleball pitch, would be an advantage in a pitcher's repretoire, imo. So wouldn't you want that for a closer, starter, or relief pitcher, as an advantage for your team; or is it the unpredictability of the pitcher controlling the knuckleball that would may it not advantagous for a closer to use?
                                        
                                                                

[blue911]

But it has been stated on several broadcasts and by sportcasters, that most batters do not know how to hit a knuckleball.  So the knuckleball pitch, would be an advantage in a pitcher's repretoire, imo. So wouldn't you want that for a closer, starter, or relief pitcher, as an advantage for your team; or is it the unpredictability of the pitcher controlling the knuckleball that would may it not advantagous for a closer to use?
                                       
                                                                 

Not even god knows where a knuckleball will land or the flight path it will take.

[tomterp]

   Just to throw into the mix - at last night's game, I was talking to a friend of mine who is a Minor League expert and follower. Interesting enough, he said that there had only been one pitcher in the Nats Farm System of late, who could successfully throw a knuckleball, but he was now gone. As for the Nats Major League, the only pitcher who has stated he can throw a knuckleball, is our closer, Matt Capps.  Per Dibble, he didn't believe him, so he went to the bullpen to check it out, sure enough Capps can throw a knuckleball, per Dibble. I would really like to see that -Capps throw a knuckleball, in a game.
                                                                                                           

Dibble's been interested in knuckleballs lately.  I think a caller raised the question, and as a result I heard Dibble discuss it at length, then invite Phil Neikro on the show the next day (which I missed).  Neikro claims he can teach anybody the knuckler in a short amount of time, but Dibble said he could never throw it.

[EdStroud]

From Bob Uecker;

"The way to catch a knuckleball is to wait until it stops rolling and then pick it up." 

[Minty Fresh]

I disagree.  Right now, there are two in the entire major leagues.  The Senators once had 4 in their rotation alone, and there were plenty around the majors at the time. 

Well, I never saw them play so it didn't happen.  It's a fact in my mind.   

[imref]

Charley Haeger has started tonight against CO with 3 walks and a hit, no outs.

Edit: 3 walks, 2 hits, 4 ERs, no outs.

[welch]

It goes in cycles. The Old Nats had a bunch of knuckle-ballers in the late '30s, early 40's (have to look that up...Dutch Leonard is the only guy who comes to mind). In the late '50s, Hoyt Wilhelm was almost the only guy throwing the pitch. The disadvantages are all those mentioned above: Gus Trandos used a  super-sized mitt to catch Wilhelm. Advantages as mentioned: you can't steal if you can't get on base.

Cycles and fads: Elroy Face was one of the few pitchers to throw a fork-ball, and went 19 -1 as a relief pitcher one year. (As best I remember, and I was about 12...). The close cousin of that pitch, the split-fingered fastball, became "everybody's" pitch after about '86, when a nothing-much pitcher for Houston tied the super-Mets in knots in the NLCS.

The knuckle-ball will be back.